Catholic,Protestant,Anglican, COI take your pick.
I grew up in the Ireland you speak about, and down the Country at that, the whole religious bit, educated in the CBS etc. Catholic then, and still a Catholic. If there was discrimination back then, I didn't see it... and we lived beside a Protestant family, who were popular and highly thought of. ( of course Northern Ireland did have massive discrimination, but against Catholics ) But while the North was divided along religious lines, it was not religious mandated.......no where can you see in the Bible, "Kill the Unbeliever". It was purely political in the North. Islam is different in that the Quran specifically states " Kill the Unbelievers", and those who leave Islam. This has not changed since the 6th century, and because its considered the Holy Word of Allah, only he can change it. There has never been any real change's since the 6th century, unlike with the Bible, which was changed drastically by Christ. That was our reformation. And in the Muslim Country's that I've lived in, I've seen plenty of hardline discrimination against non-Muslims. But it would be fantastic if only they could change.
No, not all Muslims do that,,,but some do...too many, in fact. Unless of course you believe that isis, taliban, al -quaida, boko haram, et-al are not Muslim?
Christians can leave the church?
which church?
Christianity and Islam are two different ball games...
The bible has had different versions to allow for different interpretations through time. The koran is the literal word of God. Anyone rewriting it will get killed....
Christians can leave the church and nothing happens. If a muslim leaves islam he can be killed.
All muslims do that, right? They all take out a sword and cut the throat of the "sinner"..... amazing.
You seem to forget how hardline Christian Ireland was only 30 years ago. Dublin may have been somewhat more relaxed, but down the country if you were an atheist you'd be shunned and looked down upon by over half of the christians.
Kindof similar to how I imagine an atheist would be shunned and looked down upon by over half the muslims in a muslim country right now. But that doesn't mean they can't change.
Ahh here, this is bottom of the barrel stuff 😒
The question was asked alright, or rather like you just did - the suggestion was made, to the UK Parliament by way of petition, and it was rejected -
It’s as though you’re attempting to put across the idea that Muslims present a greater risk to the general public by virtue of them being Muslim, because if I were to follow your earlier argument that Islam cannot change (which I don’t agree with), I’d still know that in any religion, they have dispensations for every circumstance, because the nature of religion is to provide guidance for every circumstance, and Islam is no different -
Wasn’t it only what, two, three weeks ago an artic truck driver crashed their vehicle in Dublin airport and we’d people on here jumping in early with sorts of conclusions about the driver. Any idiot could say look at statistics and draw their own conclusions which they could claim are supported by statistics, and unfortunately there are a few people who do just that.
The bottom line is that Islamic Culture is the complete opposite to western culture in most cases. In Islamic Country's, its not a problem, as they are all on the same page, but the problems start when east meets west. I've lived in many Islamic Country's and when there, I adapt to the Islamic way of Life, so no conflict. But even then, Ramadan presents challenges even to Muslims, fasting from Sunrise to Sunset, and fitting in a "normal" life during the limited hours of darkness. Add in the call to prayers at 05:00 hrs, and its easy to see how it can be a stressful time. Tempers can be very short and frayed, and I've seen scuffles break out over the simplest of things, a slight tip between two cars in the crowded and sometimes chaotic street's can lead to an altercation where guns will be produced. If you were to look at the accident statistics, they would show an increase during Ramadan. In the UK and US, there has been questions about the fitness of Muslim's driving school transport during Ramadan. Most businesses close a bit earlier during Ramadan, but that does not suit the business model here in the west. And that's the situation, basically both cultures are incompatible with each other, and that's why you will see more and more Islamic enclaves in European cities.
Not the least bit surprising that you would dismiss the idea of modern values and concepts not having changed a bit, as thunderwaffle, and proclaim proudly that you didn’t read any further.
Had you read further, you might have understood the context in which the point was being made, in a thread about multiculturalism and immigration where @jmreire made the point that Irish immigrants worked hard wherever they landed, and @[Deleted User] made the point that Django Unchanged was a good example of how blacks were regarded in American society and culture during the time of ownership of black slaves.
Gone With The Wind is one of the greatest movies ever made, and it’s influence on American society and culture cannot be underestimated or understated, both on and off the silver screen. Had Clarke Gable been around today (and providing the #metoo movement didn’t get to him first!), you would undoubtedly be leading the charge to portray him as woke for his reaction to segregation on the set of the film (segregated toilet facilities for whites and blacks), and again at the premiere of the film in 1939 which was held in Atlanta (where a certain future civil rights leader was a mere choirboy), and the black cast members were prohibited from attending due to the Jim Crow laws in effect at the time.
It wasn’t until 1964 that the American Civil Rights Act was passed which made discrimination on a number of grounds unlawful, and yet still in 2016 they elected a President who made no secret of his feelings towards immigrants and their impact on American society and culture. Granted the alternative was Hillary who didn’t exactly cover herself in glory by condemning anyone who didn’t share her opinions as ‘deplorable’, but the point is that it demonstrates the same attitudes exist in American society and culture as always did. If people who claim to be Republican had their way in 2020, there would be no way the descendant of Irish Catholic immigrants would hold the office of the President of America.
In the very thread where there are people who would deport all immigrants in the morning if they had the power, and block any more from coming into Ireland by characterising their presence in other European countries the way they do, using exactly the same rhetoric as was used then, couched in modern terms like “incompatible with our culture”, and you dismiss the observation of the parallels as thunderwaffle, I’d suggest you were either having a laugh, or you were being wilfully ignorant.
I generally prefer to keep things light-hearted, so I’m gonna go with the far more likely scenario that you’re having a laugh.
SAw the demands in the workplace increase the more there were.. Calls for lunch free lunch meetings. during ramadan brazenly walking in and putting their work on my desk complaining they were too tired and had headaches.. and acting all offended when told forcefully where to go
But that the problem yoke, isn't it? When hardline Muslims come in contact with unbelievers, and decide to follow Mohammad's instructions to the letter. And then you will see bloodshed, has happened too many times world wide and not just historically, but in recent times. So it all depends on the circumstances. Your devout Muslim here in Ireland who is surrounded by unbelievers, is unlikely to harm anyone.....but in a different place would he react differently? Until it happens, (or not) only time will tell. But you cannot say with certainty that it will never happen.
Very good work, @enricoh. These statistics should be what informs our debate.
But it is hardly a surprise that newcomers to the state, many poorer than the average citizen here, may be overrepresented in the figures of those who need state support.
But, of course, we cannot apply different rules for people, in regard to access to state services, on the basis of where they are from.
The same thing that happens to any non-muslim when they come into contact with a devout muslim who thinks they should burn in hell, ie. Nothing.
The problem occurs when a devout religious nutjob decides that their own god is useless, and tries to give a helping hand
What happens when a lgbt person comes into contact with anyone who think they should burn in hell?
What happens when an LGBT person's life comes into contact with a devout muslim who thinks they should burn in hell?
Stopped reading when i got to the "modern values/concepts haven't changed a bit since then". Absolute thunderwaffle.
What was commonly accepted before, during and after the period surrounding the American Civil War was that the Irish were a greater threat to Nativist ideals of their Republic, than blacks, who were just their property.
There’s a nuance to the narrative of Irish immigrants in America and the idea that they worked hard and assimilated themselves into American society. Some wealthier Irish immigrants were able to fend for themselves and organise themselves, but the vast majority of Irish immigrants were viewed in the very same way as some people nowadays view immigrants to Ireland.
It’s easy to draw parallels and assign modern values/concepts to that period in history, because people aren’t any different now than they were then - modern values/ concepts haven’t changed a bit since then, and Western society isn’t any more civilised now than it was then.
When I think of media portrayals of the American Civil War, Django Unchained is not the first one that springs to mind, not least for the fact that I’ve never seen it as I just don’t find Tarantino all that entertaining, but I think of movies like Gone With The Wind and mini-series like North and South or Roots.
If I were to think of a movie portrayal of the Irish and how they were regarded in the same period, Gangs of New York is a good one -
I tried to watch The Irishman recently on Netflix, but it was a bum-numbing three and a half hours, and I didn’t find it particularly entertaining, even if it is more historically accurate than anything Tarantino has ever done.
It comes back to the political will to support/encourage Justice to deal with them, with deportations. It simply isn't there... but the processes are in place should they ever find the will.
It's the same with most problems in Dublin, whether it's crime, begging or drug usage. There are laws in place, systems available to process those involved, but there's little real interest in dealing with the problems, because it forces politicians/public servants to take responsibility for exercising authority, and opens themselves up to all manner of criticism from the Media, or minority support groups/NGOs.
To be fair, the same issue with having the will and exercising that authority is a problem in many areas of Europe... Western culture has placed so much emphasis on individual rights and freedoms, that it's managed to paralyze itself.
Oh it does happen, only in proper countries like Germany etc. Not in Paddyland.
Inward migration the scourge of all nations.
One may argue that beggars are actually supporting themselves :)
Also, they are Eastern Europeans of certain...culture.
That clearly doesnt happen though. You walk about Dublin and there are a lot of East European beggars....
If an EU citizen cannot support themselves in another EU country, they can be repatriated. That's EU law.
People who come here, work and integrate are welcome. They are not the problem., but people who come here and are a burden on the taxpayer are a problem.
I'm not in favour of the system but they do not get full dole while still living in their centre. If they get leave to remain, they are taken off the DP payment and put onto Jobseekers etc but the payment is put in to match the current DP payment until they move out.
As it's seen that they have bread and board paid while there.
They don't get the full rate until they provide evidence they left.
Different times and different expectations. The Irish of the past are not the same as those migrants who have come to Ireland. They're light years different, in terms of freedoms, rights, and opportunities available to them.
The vast majority of immigrants and Asylum seekers chose to come to Ireland, bypassing/skipping other safe or prosperous nations to do so. That's an important distinction, and it's worth remembering that whenever people talk about Irish immigration to the US or whatever. The times were incredibly different, and the vast majority of the Irish who went there had no alternative choice of destination, didn't have any safety, or whatever.
As for our immigrants and asylum seekers... Given time answers will be forthcoming, and likely we'll get them from places like Denmark, Germany or Sweden. We're well behind the curve on immigration and having a substantial population living here long-term, so I doubt we'll have to face those kind of generational problems for another decade or so. Hopefully Europe will have figured it out, and given other countries permission to deal with the problems involved.
I'm always a bit bemused by the assigning of modern values/concepts on to people throughout history, when such values/concepts weren't commonly accepted, or even discussed.
Irish people who left to live in other countries were extremely racist, and bigoted. So, too, were the French, the English, the Chinese, the... whatever. Everyone of a particular culture looked out on others as being very "different", and different wasn't a good thing. Conformity was certainly a primary conditioning piece within society, and those who were different were targeted for all manner of abuse. That being the case if you were a different nationality, different race, or simply you dressed particularly different... which is was exaggerated for those mingling with those not of their social class.
When you look at movies about the American Civil war, there's... enlightened attitude to the people involved. They're all aware of the evils of slavery (in spite of it being an accepted practice for centuries), they all are so welcoming to peoples of different backgrounds, etc. Meh. Django Unchained is probably one of the most honest of these kind of movies for how people behaved towards each other... and that wasn't exclusive to the rich.
Irish people emigrating to other countries, were more often than not, extremely poorly educated, violent, and dirty, along with the problems of spreading disease within their own communities, due to awful hygiene habits. Ahh.. isn't it wonderful when we look at our movies, and see just how civilised the Irish were.
To end the little rant... Let me remind you all, that bigoted/racist/classist behavior was the norm. The reason that people didn't talk about it much was because in most cases, the local population was predominately A or B. That's it. The difference between being Catholic or Protestant... Scottish or Irish... but when these rather ignorant people went abroad to more 'populated' areas? Oh boy. It took a rather long time for them to become civilised (which would still be below our standards).
They would equally be dismissed as race baiting grifters.
Nasty fcuker was Denis -
In 1878, Kearney traveled to Boston to carry his message against the Chinese to eastern audiences. He was warmly welcomed, and it was estimated that "thousands, indeed, packed Faneuil Hall on August 5 to hear his first speech, and thousands more had to be turned away." Within a short time, however, the crowds at his speeches began to dwindle. The Boston Journal noted "the workingmen of this state are by no means united in welcoming Kearney ... Many of them have no sympathy with his anti-Chinese policy, they dislike his openly Communistic principles, and will not endure his conceited intolerance."
While in Massachusetts he campaigned with the Massachusetts politician Benjamin Butler, the Greenback Party's candidate for President. Kearney sought the Vice Presidential nomination, although Butler never offered it to him. After criticism of him increased in editorials and articles in eastern newspapers, he returned to San Francisco.
Kearny sometimes crossed paths with Chinese-American civil rights activist Wong Chin Foo. Wong challenged Kearney to a duel on the occasion of a speech by Kearney in New York in 1883, giving Kearney "his choice of chopsticks, Irish potatoes, or Krupp guns." Kearney responded by calling Wong an "almond-eyed leper." Wong's darkly sarcastic commentary on Christian hypocrisy Why I am a Heathen speculated that Kearney might slip into heaven (via an eleventh-hour repentance), and proceed to "organize a heavenly crusade to have me and others immediately cast out and into the other place."
And what will happen when our immigrants and asylum seekers reach a % when they can do the same thing???
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