At the end of the day no one can take away from the justification the Irish people had to attack crown forces, although some people may condemn the IRA based on the fact that a minority of their victims were civilians, no one can deny the legitimacy of the people who with bravery and unselfishness attacked the occupying forces.
.
Why not blow up a factory late at night after it's closed for the day then?
It's an opinion you don't accept, not a lie. You only get the feels for IRA victims. No worries.
On the other hand, no. I referenced the atrocity of the Tuam babies and the Ballymurphy massacre as incidents you seem to have no interest in, to show how I came to my conclusion. I never referenced it the many times you've used victims.
Don't strain yourself having to crowbar in the 'recent links' to justify always talking about the 'RA. It's actually a current affairs forum on SF. But I've no problem saying the IRA killed people. It's a fact. Talk away. It's your agenda I'm commenting on.
Again, you using Jean McConville and her family every time SF do well in the polls or the government embarrass themselves is very telling IMO.
I don't care about FF or FG, people can vote for the Greens, the SDs, Labour, independents, even the idiotic alphabet left-wing parties so long as they don't vote for the abomination that is Sinn Fein.
SF supporters think those that are against them are all FFG supporters. That simply isn't true. If there was one lesson from today's opinion poll it is that only those who support Sinn Fein want them in government. Supporters of all other parties would prefer any other government.
If people think aspects of sf past, will be enough to stop large numbers from voting for them, while ffg destroy lives now, they are delusional...
That is simply a lie. Those victims of the PIRA are the ones asking for answers. I am supporting them in seeking answers from SF figures like Conor Murphy, Gerry Adams and others. It is the same when Joe Brolly talks about atoning for what people close to him did. Spit it out, Joe, tell the truth. My approach is as far from abusing victims as it is possible to be. I am supporting them in their attempts to get justice. Your twisting of that into abuse is one of the most cynical and disgusting debating tactics I have seen to date.
On the other hand, your use of the Tuam babies is a clear example of the abuse of victims. You are not over on the relevant thread about them posting about their situation. Instead, you are using them on an unrelated thread to deflect and distract where you spend about half of your time posting. Another appalling abuse of victims.
This thread is about Sinn Fein, it is about their recent links to the PIRA, it is about the victims of the PIRA, it is about those in Sinn Fein who had involvement in making those people victims, all of that is relevant to the thread. You just want to shut down conversation about those victims.
All you are doing is trying, poorly, to turn my comment back on me.
My point, as clarified three times, is merely that yourself and others who use those killed in the conflict/troubles for political mileage, couldn't care less about the victims or their families, based on the lack of interest in a mass grave of dead babies and the ballymurphy massacre and so on. You are not supporting anyone unless it might score points against SF. Thats my opinion based on the evidence.
Your dealing with people who use murder vitims and child abuse victims simply as politival pawns for an online debate...ffs..
(note,for instance how robert quinn family has been quieltly shunted off the stage,before polls even closed....if they had an honest bone in body,they would push for miniaterial resignations for failure to progress inquiry)
an honest appraisal of their character,would have em smash the report button and see yous banned,despite their awlful bahviour being entirely worthy of appraisel
But the tuam,issue is glossed over,despite something like 700 remains of citizens of the state lying there and zero political imperitive to further it/pressureise church to co-operate or send gaurds to raid church records to get to bottom of it....
nothing ever changes here,and never will with these cnuts running place
The use of the dead babies and their families on this thread by you is hollow and dishonest. There is no linkage to current politicians working for any party.
However, there are links (according to these victims) between the likes of Jean McConville, Mairia Cahill, Austin Stack, Jerry McCabe to current and very recent politicians in Sinn Fein. That is reality that cannot be denied and is vastly different to the way that you are using dead babies for political purposes.
Those victims are all calling on Sinn Fein politicians and PIRA members to be held to account for what they know and what they did. In promoting their ambitions, I am not abusing Jean McConville and the like, I am supporting them. The ones who abuse them are those, like you, who want all discussions of the wrongs done to them swept under the carpet.
Do not wrongly accuse me again of abusing people like Jean McConville, it is a despicable tactic of yours.
No I'm not. I'm Saying the use of the dead and their families on this thread is hollow and dishonest. I used the lack of interest in an actual mass grave of dead babies as an example.
Not deflecting. No denial the IRA killed. Also these references have been repeated over and over. Such as your abuse of jean McConville and her family for political one-upmanship masquerading as empathy. If she were abducted and killed by the UVF or BA you wouldn't ever mention the woman except to try find an IRA comparison. Just pointing out how the empathy and horror is bullshit.
You literally were critical of people deciding which RA man was okay and which wasn't when you engage in it yourself.
Using the murdered and their families to try one up SF is pathetic. If it was genuine the same players would be commenting on massacres carried out by the BA or mass graves left by the church and state, but they don't. Thats my point.
You are still using off-topic dead babies to divert and distract from atrocities that Sinn Fein actively supported and encouraged (and many current members took part in).
As for Jean McConville, her family believe Gerry Adams was involved in her disappearance and he is still a member of Sinn Fein today, making it relevant today. Now if you want to dig up Michael Collins or Eamon DeValera and resurrect them like Frankenstein, you will be able to make an equivalent claim on the relevant government thread.
Its a SF thread were the likes of yourself routinely use murder victims from decades ago and their families to try pretend to be absolutely disgusted so you can link it to SF in 2021/2022. Its obvious and any disgust is just not credible.
As I said we have at least one mass grave of dead babies you are only bothering with to pretend to be absolutely disgusted they are mentioned. My point is if the moral outrage was genuine people wouldn't be only concerned about the killings and families they can try use to score political points.
Thats not deflection. Thats calling out the lack of credibility from hypocrites.
You used jean mcconville only the other day.
Such spurious nonsense attributing motivation to posters who you don't even know.
What is absolutely disgusting though is that you are using dead babies in Tuam to deflect and distract from the atrocities committed by Sinn Fein. The difference between the two situations is that nearly everyone in the country has condemned what happened in Tuam while there are people prepared to defend to the death the terrorism inflicted by the PIRA.
We have now grown up as a country far enough to reject the Catholic ideology imposed by our ancestors, time for us to grow further and reject the exclusionary nationalist ideology also imposed by those dead men (and they were nearly all men). Unfortunately, as long as there are people prepared to deflect and distract from the PIRA atrocities, that is unlikely.
True but most of them would be in favour of a truth and reconciliation process similar to that in South Africa which would give an amnesty to all sides but it will never happen because the British are strongly opposed to it compared with loyalists and Republicans who are strongly in favour of it.
Trying to convict people is pointless all prisoners were released anyway after the GFA and the British are never going to convict their soldiers or persecute MI5 and British army intelligence for doing things that were acceptable back in those days.
It's not like there was any conspiracy involved in things like Ballymurphy or Bloody Sunday, EVERYONE knew what happened they're not going to decide to convict them over it 50 years later, the Queen gave the soldiers medals a few months later even though it was blatantly obvious what they done, also everything the intelligence services were doing was all above board and sanctioned so they are not going to decide to convict any of them over it now.
Basically what the British want is the amnesty but without any truth process, they also want an end to end all inquests and investigations into the past with this amnesty.
Only 30% killed were civilian. Ah, that's OK then.
I suppose you'll tell us next that it was there own fault for getting in the way of the bombs.
Bombs were placed knowing there would be civilians present and the ira didn't care.
You've Just confirmed it. It was a very good figure.
Not a single victims relatives group supports the troubles amnesty
I wouldnt blame them either,they are fully entitled tto know,what happemee there relatives.....there is nothing to stop an irish government fcuking out the british ambassador if/when they introduce this bar on convictions and working to encourage expulsion of british diplomats from every country
They chased the nazis to the end of the earth,but coverup their war crimes here
Unfortunately it's probably never going to happen, the British are going to introduce a bar on future criminal investigations, inquests and civil litigation relating to the troubles.
I don't think many people would have a problem with the troubles amnesty, they have a problem with trying to brush it all under the carpet in an attempt to cover up their collusion with loyalists.
Think I said that about 15 pages ago, dude.
I suspect your right,but nonetheless,its a subject needs grasping....(as do mother & baby homes,but realistically that would descimate tradional ffg families particularly in rural areas,and the media cover it up for em-but truth always come out)
hopefully at least one is being honest and wanting it discussed
But shinners been pushing a peace and reconcilliation commission,but havnt managed to get (any?) victims groups on board....the british attempts to draw a line under it are wrong,but fundamentally each family deserve to know truth as to how/why relatives killed and what went wrong in the cases of innocents.....
it will need come with a massive willingness to accept hard truths from all sides,as some relatives are obv not going to like what they hear etc,but truth needs out,not sweep under carpet.....anyone found to be lying/obstrucing like paras at saville to face 30 years in jail
Perhaps it could go on case-by-case issue with different victim groups engaging for different clusters to help make headway.....if it isnt done in next 5 to 10 years,it will petter out/participants die off,with noone satisfied with outcome
(I honestly be try and make this as concise as possible)
Its all about trying to attack SF in 2021/2022 for doing well in the polls. There's no interest in reconciliation or justice for victims.
There's a mass grave of dead babies in Tuam and very likely more elsewhere, but they've no interest because it doesn't damage SF.
Is that what SF said?
This subject is not going anywhere until there has been a proper truth/reconciliation commission
This needs engagement of (all) victim relatives groups,it may make shinners uncomfortable/cost em votes,but what of it??
,its still a vital discussion needed having on irelands recent past (including any/all potential garda assistance/individual sympathy to ira)
Your free to call it a war crime,all war is crime after all....
i have no issue with it being call that,to each their own view,but i do have issue with propaganda driven misnomers being passed as fact,when they simply dont stand up scritiny
I think we should drop this subject it's not going anywhere.
Targeting economic infrastructure i.e corner shops, offices, supermarkets, bus stations etc. All places operated, run and used by innocent civilians. It was either terrorism or if you think these guys were actually soldiers (rather then the scumbags they were) then it was a war crime. Criminal either way.
Except i havnt downplayed anything...perhaps using facts and logic,yous could outline where i did?
But once the warning is placed in adequate time,it places burden of stopping it onto police/security forces,this is rather obvious stuff,if the police/military dont want this responsilbility,they are free to withdraw from the island at any time imo....i mean like, it is their job
We are supposedly a neutral country,but have severl british army bases on the island,its bizzare logic
The IRA had a "no warning" campaign of blowing up pubs packed with civilians in Gilford and Birmingham. Saying they were targeting the couple of soldiers sitting at one end of the bar and the civilians all around them were not the actual targets is a new low of political spin even for Sinn Fein.
An assessment of a mindset? So perhaps I should assess your mindset? You willfully ignore facts and logic to downplay the targeting and killing of civilians by a terrorist organisation. We'll call that terrorist-like logic shall we?
I didn't say a warning increases the risk of civilian casualties. I said planting the bomb does and a warning doesn't negate that risk. Would you care to explain how planting a bomb in public does not increase the risk of civilians deaths ? Or how knowing even with warnings that civilians still died how planting subsequent bombs at non military, non economicly impactful locations causing the further civilian deaths was "minimising civilian casualties"?
How would your terrorist-like logic explain that?
Only 30% of people killed by the IRA were civilians (a very good figure for any group engaged in conflict) that should settle the argument and clarify that civilians weren't being targeted but some did get targeted at times although most civilians were killed accidentally and were not targeted.
The civilian figure also includes 60 former members of the security forces, 30 prison guards, civilians employed by British security forces, politicians, members of the judiciary, and alleged criminals and informers
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