I'm not absolving them at all. I'm simply saying that without Trump's lies and stoking of the delusions and prejudices that these people hold, they wouldn't have had a platform to attack the Capitol. They're obviously adults and have to be responsible for their actions, which is why half of them are now in prison, but Trump created the platform for them.
The press consistently had that line of offence about him, and he responded in kind with the result that they fed his followers and that nourishment stuck to his ribs for the duration. If ever there was a pied piper in modern American politics, it is him. That great big orange hued caricature of himself.
Do you accept they are 100% responsible for their own actions? If so, we have no disagreement.
No. Making them 100% responsible for what happens clears Trump of blame. Trump should bear plenty of responsibility for feeding these people lies and having no interest whatsoever in the truth.
No it doesn't. Trump is responsible for what Trump did. Maybe he'll face charges maybe he won't, hopefully he will. Absolving people who travelled 100's of miles to attack their own government because Trump lied to them is absolving them of what they did. They were there due to their own stupidity. Nothing more, nothing less.
No it doesn't. they are 100 responsible for their own actions. Trump is 100% responsible for his.
The two events are linked. Trump created an angry, hostile base by feeding them lies. That angry hostile base attacked the Capitol. I'm not absolving the people that attacked the Capitol. They're to blame for the attack. Trump is the cause of the attack. Not sure what's so complicated about that, honestly.
WOW....just WOW!
"You know, if we win a few elections, we’re still going to be losing unless we win the hearts and minds of our children. This is the battle. Hitler was right on one thing: he said, ‘Whoever has the youth has the future."
"Trump decided to back Miller after being heavily lobbied to do so by Marjorie Taylor Greene"
But the actions that Trump is 100% responsible for led to those people undertaking the actions they are 100% responsible for. Trump cannot be absolved of responsibility for the actions of the rioters when he was the one who incited many of them to carry out those actions, through his actions. Ascribing percentages to them is redundant. Trump's actions led to the rioters actions, even if Trump didn't specifically tell them "Carry out these actions".
Well, he told them to "march down to the Capitol" and to "fight like hell". You can interpret his words how you like, but if I was an angry deluded brain-free idiot that had been fed porkies by the POTUS about him being robbed of a free and fair election, I'd probably have had a fairly hostile mindset going down there too.
I really don't see how I can be any clearer.
Oh no!
Anyway
But but free speech etc….
I asked if you believed they were 100% responsible for their own actions, you said no. Yes Trump did what you said, however those people turned up on their own free will. No one forced them to be there. They are 100% responsible for their own actions, if you don't think they are then you are absolving them of (well some, ok) blame which shouldn't be done.
Edit: Ohnonotgmail summed up my position very well.
How many more pages are you going to try and drag this shit out for?
You are essentially arguing that no leader is responsible for telling their followers to do bad things. Using this argument, Osama Bin Laden bears no responsibility for 9/11. After all, it was his followers doing the deed, and of their own volition.
Let's dispense with the very concerted efforts to dismantle any kind of objective truth - Trump's followers stormed the Capitol based on a lie that Trump was telling vociferously. For that, the least punishment Trump deserves is an end to his life in politics.
I'd be absolving them if I said that Trump was entirely to blame and the rioters shouldn't be blamed at all. That's not what I said. It's one event. The rioters are responsible for charging the Capitol. Trump is responsible for creating this environment of lies that then provoked these idiots to attack the Capitol. Multiple parties can be responsible for one event, it doesn't mean you're absolving one group of blame by saying that another party is also to blame for it.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree on that. Hopefully we can agree that both Trump and the rioters deserve to face consequences for what happened.
nobody is arguing that. has reading comprehension completely disappeared? Absent any mental issues adults are 100% responsible for their own actions. Trump is also responsible for his part in the attempted coup.
Precisely. I fail to see what is so hard to understand about this.
Happy New Year!
They are 100% responsible for their actions. And should be held accountable.
Same goes for Trump and his inner circle for bringing about the events of January 6th which they instigated and took pleasure in.
Came here to post about this. Still not breaking out any champagne, it's good to see movement towards holding these people responsible for all their actions. I'm still not overly confident that it will have a significant impact.
It's too easy for them to delay proceedings as much as possible, and then to claim any investigations are politically motivated in order to get people to back off.
I fully agree.
Hopefully the fact that Letitia James turned down the chance to run for governor in order to continue as AG indicates she's determined to see this out and make sure justice is done.
Hummm.
Marjorie Taylor Green banned by Twitter for a preponderance of misinformation about Covid and masking. She is a major Trump supporter. But it’s doubtful Trump will pick her as his running mate in 2024. Good chance Trump will pick a woman, but not Green, to draw Republican and independent women voters.
Trump would be an idiot to look beyond Niki Halley in 2024 and even though it pains me to say it, I think even he is too smart to mess that up. MTG is more of a Chris Christie character, she'll go out to bat for Trump big time, but will never be seen as capable enough to justify being offered a significant role to.
The fact that MTG is so unashamedly pro-Trump, will work against her in the long run. She hasn't left any room to be anything else and there is nothing but trouble to be gained by giving her the notoriety of being a running mate.
Nikki Haley is Trump’s best bet for 2024. She had been critical of Trump’s Jan 6 role. But has backed off since. Now supporting Trump.
I really still think he won't be the nominee, I'm prepared for having egg on my face however.
What do you think will be the reason he isn't the nominee?
I hope you're right and ideally it would be the first point, because of the stuff covered within the second that would ultimately do him in. But I am very sceptical of court/legal/criminal proceedings being allowed to go forward given how people will react if he says its only being done to keep him out of power. And the GOP have already shown that they are comfortable with supporting him even as they blame him for Jan 6th and spreading lies about the last election.
