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Irish language gets full EU status today

downcow

I read this today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6212033.stm

And today’s Irish times states, ‘Inevitably, many documents will remain unread. Still, Byrne dismisses any critics who claim the effort is a wasteful means of promoting the language. “I think it’s necessary if we are to have any self-respect and our European colleagues agreed to this.’

i would love to understand better where people’s true feelings are around the language. I live in the north and the language, sadly, has become a daily battle which I think will be very difficult to step back from. I guess, the legacy of a vicious conflict and a lot of hurt on all sides.

I would love to hear what you guys think is appropriate annual spend in the promotion of the language and what you think of dual signage, both where it is welcomed and non-controversial (I imagine most of the island), as well as where it is very controversial (much of the north).

it would be really helpful if you gave your reasons eg, it helps tourism, makes you feel more secure in your irishness, educational, the basis of your self-respect, etc. or alternatively eg, it is a waste of resources, creates division, is cultural supremacy etc.

i suppose a question I have is, why does it matter? And I know certain politicians up here have had very nasty unwarranted snipes at it, but if I can ask gently, whether many of you perceive it as a healthy and admirable ‘interest’ or ‘hobby’, - which I fear some will say is an offensive question, but help me understand why it is not a reasonable view for an outsider.

I’m all ears

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fly_agaric

I would love to understand better where people’s true feelings are around the language. I live in the north and the language, sadly, has become a daily battle which I think will be very difficult to step back from. I guess, the legacy of a vicious conflict and a lot of hurt on all sides.

I think that's a bad and destructive way to approach the ongoing issue of Irish language in NI.

It's just a language at the end of the day. Being able to speak it or wanting to speak it, and wanting the (local) govt. to support that doesn't make someone some sort of "traitor" to the British state/terrorist sympathiser etc.

This sort of atavistic fear and hatred is (obviously) not good at all really.

As regards expense for signs or more translations to Irish/content in Irish in NI, I doubt it is going to be noticed. I think the other 2 non English regions (Wales and Scotland) have similar uncontroversial provisions for Wesh and Gaelic as surviving minority languages. As far as I understand, all that is being sought for NI is to put Irish on the same footing as them.

It would be really helpful if you gave your reasons eg, it helps tourism, makes you feel more secure in your irishness, educational, the basis of your self-respect, etc. or alternatively eg, it is a waste of resources, creates division, is cultural supremacy etc.

Well it's a national identity & therefore an emotional thing...may as well ask what is the point of "Irishness"/"Britishness" etc. It's not fully rational or able to be reduced down to all costs and benefits. The language is an absolutely massive part of what makes a people or a nation a people at all. Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam has truth in it. I say that as someone who liked learning and was fairly good at the language in school, but have not put the effort in to keep it up as an adult. By the way, there doesn't necessarily have to be "supremacy" in feeling an attachment to your culture/national identity.

Have to say, am on the fence about the worth of the "EU working language" thing to Irish. I can see why the government and I suppose Irish language advocates would push for this. It is basically a pride or self respect thing. It's (likely?) an oddity that Irish would not be a full official language at the EU with all legislation translated etc. when it is specified in the constitution as the language of this state and we are an EU member state.

I expect all of the national languages (if countries have them specified in a constitution) would be working languages...but of course they probably are not in the sad half dead state that Irish is in.

Like alot of things politicians/governments do this ends up being about optics rather than much harder and probably more expensive work of actually trying to grow the use of Irish in the country, number of speakers etc.

It makes good jobs for translators, but one wonders as always about some of the opportunity costs. Would they be better paid & employed by government at home here expanding translation of content for TG4/Radio na Gaeltachta, translating more books people might want to read etc in Irish from other languages (esp. for children say) instead of sending them to the EU to translate important but very dull legislation?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118399899#Comment_118399899

The opportunity cost question is a good one but in my view, no the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

Three main reasons

The growing pool of Irish translators will have the ability to do all those great educational/entertainment things involving content, books etc... before, during or after their European experience off their own bat or via funding. The reality is that this never happen otherwise unless Government funding exploded in this area which I can't see happening.
The Professionalism of Irish has been a quiet phenomenon the past 20 years. All the technical resources and training now available to facilitate translators and professional users have been really important to bring the language into the 21st century. Yes, it's dense and dull but it's the bedrock and those people who want to create educational/entertainment resources now have the bedrock at their fingertips.
It's accountability. A lot of Irish speakers don't have great experience using Irish in the Government/Public Sphere. Recent controversies about answers in English to Dail questions posed in Irish etc... is only the latest in a string of issues. The Irish Times article says:

Minister of State for Europe Thomas Byrne says “full status” is a massive boon for Irish, imposing new pressure to upgrade language skills and modernise a lexicon that many associate with the rural past. “This is huge for the Irish language there’s no doubt about it,” he says.

It not only "imposes new pressure to upgrade language skills" it also "imposes new pressure" to keep the government accountable in the legislative sphere to resist the constant temptation: "Sure, why can't you just use English".

[Deleted User]

It all feels a bit pointless in 2022. Is the number of people speaking the language in their day to day life increasing or decreasing. Has the language really progressed in the last 100 years.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400036#Comment_118400036

It's fair to say the language is on life support. Traditional gaeltacht communities are on the steady decline.

Without the benefits of being a national language and the ressurgance of Gaelscoil movement, it would have been dead in the water by now (IMHO).

But, compared to Scottish Gaelic which has experienced similar declines, the future is a lot brighter.

A fairly short Google will show you the online presence and footprint of both languages.

The wide variety of competing Irish course providers etc... growing numbers of adult learners and the job opportunities available means that Irish has made the jump into the 21st Century needed to keep its head above water so to speak.

It wasnt me123

I think we should teach Irish differently - who in national school caress about adverbs etc, There should be a designated day in NS where they speak Irish for the day - not for maths or English - so social conversation, playground chat, instruction and repeat of lessons etc, Make it more relaxed and not the big stick to beat us all with. Teach it through dance, music and literature. Then in secondary school teach it more formally, with sentence structure, grammar etc. That way they learn the basics properly before the grammar stick. Should we all know our national language, yes IMO. I think it should be treated like Welsh in Wales - lots of every day people speak it in every day situations and yes, I think it should be an official EU language. Irish signs in the north? Lets have a referendum and let the people choose - lets discuss it, pros and cons, and add it to the referendum about a united ireland as its a similar divisive issue.

Capt'n Midnight

Puts more pressure for an Irish Language Act, especially when the UK tries to re-join.

Dyr

The Scene: The intensive care unit for Languages. Gaelige is on life support, barely responsive, looking at the population charts the prognosis is grim

In burst a delegation of Shinners from Boards and Twitter, for the Annual Shinner token visit

"Look Granny, you acheived full EU status! Isn't it wonderful!!" gushes Sneachta Ni Pronoun (They/Them)

"Lets take a picture of you with your cert for my Twitter feed" Republicanbhoy98 proclaims

An Teanga Náisúnta stirs and feebly whispers:

"Táimse faoi bhaoil bás.....Cén fath....nach labhraigh sibh bhur... teanga féin?"

"What did she say?" sez RepublicanBhoy

"Dunno" sez Sorcha "I'd say she's delighted, just post the photo, we've to be up in Stormont for the annual token speech to abolish Partition, don't forget your flag this time"

"I've a tricolour in the boot" Sez the Bhoy

"No dimwit, a pride flag, Narrow Nationalism is icky" pouts Miss Ní Pronoun as they rush off, iphones in hand.

Theres a long flat beeeping sound from the life support monitor as the old language finally gives up the ghost

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400009#Comment_118400009

All very interesting points thanks.

Yes, don't think the will is there from govt. to fund greatly expanded educational/entertainment translation and content production efforts, which would be a much bigger deal and much more expensive.

I suppose things like this (Irish as an EU working language/expanding the translation of EU legislation) do help keep Irish ticking over, but if they want to grow its usage and increase number of speakers (which is I suppose where I was coming from) + ensure language is alive in 100 years time something else is probably needed.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400182#Comment_118400182

You probably won't even have a population thats majority Irish in a 100 years time so good luck with that 😂

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400214#Comment_118400214

Where will they all be from? Or do they have to be sixth generation or greater to be Irish?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400214#Comment_118400214

at least non Irish people appear to have more interest in learning other languages!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400180#Comment_118400180

The hand me down inferiority complex from colonisation expressed in a single post. Maith an cailín/buachaill

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118399793#Comment_118399793

That’s exactly my point and pretty accurately describes how many unionists feel when Irish signage is erected in their towns. Spot on.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400320#Comment_118400320

In 'their' towns? Equality feeling like oppression again downcow? This 'ownership' issue has been pointed out to you before.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400371#Comment_118400371

Haha. As I typed it I knew francie would play with the words again. Look again. I am referring to towns where unionists are in the minority. It’s ‘our’ town in the same way as the catholic grocers is ‘our’ wee grocer. Catch yourself on francie and don’t try to lower the tone of the discussion. Are you telling me that you don’t refer to your town as ‘our’. I am not going to engage in your silly games.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400481#Comment_118400481

I don't get to dictate what happens in my town downcow.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400243#Comment_118400243

Whatever about the natives lack of interest, If you think immigrants or the kids of immigrants are going to be arsed learning Irish, then you're deluding yourself.

Our future on this Island now is a globalised culture, that is going to kill off the few scraps of the indigenous culture that the Brits couldnt. It's funny to see people try to convince themselves that's not the case.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400512#Comment_118400512

Do you now see the irony now francie. You are referring to “my town”. Here’s exactly what you posted when I said “our town”

”This 'ownership' issue has been pointed out to you before.”

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400310#Comment_118400310

Nah, Inferiority is when you cheerlead the plantation of your country just to appear virtuous, Francie.

Still reflexively Stanning for SF though I see.

On lowerin too on tonga nawshonnta air cur air bih Pronsheeus?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400570#Comment_118400570

It's my town and it is also the person who lives beside me[s 'town'.

I don't own it.

You should have said 'when Irish signage is erected in the towns where they live'. Because they do live there alongside others with equal rights to them.

You repeatedly use the possessive when discussing...'our wee town', 'our wee country' from a Unionist perspective.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400609#Comment_118400609

No need to double down.

You are just another demeaner in the tradition of Gregory Campbell.

[Deleted User]

LOL Francie badly triggered. Top quality trolling Dyr. 🤣

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400656#Comment_118400656

Triggered?

Just answering his post like others.

[Deleted User]

My memories of learning Irish at school are pretty grim, zero passion, curriculum boring and rigid. Nobody really seemed interested in the language. Hours and hours spent at it yet most students left school without an ability to have a proper conversation in it after 13 years of learning. It has tainted my feelings about the language. I do not like it at all. I don’t view this new EU status with any great excitement either.

whisky_galore

Well-meaning EU minority languages box ticking.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400689#Comment_118400689

I'd wholeheartedly agree that our education system has a lot to answer for. Hard not to be excited at what the new interest in Gael Scoileanna will produce, you can sense the pride and interest the young have in speaking the language.

The colonisers knew that the way to subjugate the native language and culture in the first place was to make people ashamed to speak it and stop using it in schools. My grandmother was born in the Donegal Gaeltacht and spoke of this feeling of inferiority, she wouldn't let her children speak it as a result and only in very late years did she regret.

Reversing that process will pay dividends in the future.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400656#Comment_118400656

In fairness (to francie!) the reply to me was just a "great replacement" dog whistle or maybe dog fart. I'm sure there's other threads for that.

Before that a sarcastic story about "Shinners" which tbh really has little to do with actual question of whether the state (in Ireland or NI) should try and promote use of the Irish language or not via establishing Irish as a working EU language or by other means. Sinn Féin have never been in govt. here in Ireland + have nothing to do with making Irish an EU working language.

The poster presumably doesn't like "Shinners" and also gets off looking in his cracked crystal ball. Predicting Irish people and language finally getting consigned to the dustbin of history makes him cry with laughter for some reason. Each to their own I suppose.

joebloggs32

€€€€€€€€€€£££££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

KevRossi

200+ translators, officials and assorted add ons. With wages, employers contributions, expenses, office space, equipment etc., it will cost well in excess of €25,000,000 per annum, possibly an awful lot more. Fair enough, but it will do absolutely nothing to encourage or assist, one single person in this country or elsewhere to learn the language.

I paid €130 a couple of years ago to attend a refresher course in Conradh na Gaeilge in Dublin for (I think) 10 x 2 hour classes with about 12 others. I see they're around €150 now. Maybe if they did something to reduce the price of this, then it may encourage some people to go back and learn it.

Or maybe just promote speaking classes locally. Basic Irish conversation in local community halls or schools or libraries at night for whoever wants to pick it up again. Pay a fluent speaker to come along and help us. But they won't do something like that, or try any initiative. Instead they teach it not much differently from they way they did 30 years ago and we still have the overwhelming portion of the population having done 13 years of a language and struggling to put two sentence together.

It's a waste of taxpayers money, but only a drop in the wastefulness that is EU bureaucracy.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400827#Comment_118400827

The 'triggered' taunt is basically 'how dare you answer back'.