Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Munster have retained pretty much all of the players we wanted to retain with the exception of Zebo, who ended up returning
DDA and RG were signed to do a job, not as development players and neither has left Munster yet so Donal Lenihan is full of sh1t, as you would know by listening to any of his commentary or reading any of his articles
We have had movement at senior management level, but so have all the other provinces except Leinster
He didn't say DD and RGS were leaving. He said that failing to retain them would be bad coupled with the failure to retain a load of coaching staff over the last few years. Be fair in your criticism or at least read the article.
OK. We'll, maybe you think everything is hunky dory in Munster. I think, for example, an Irish club with a full strength starting backing with only 2 players from the provisional system (Earls and Murray), is not producing enough players through it's provincial system.
Everything not being rosy at Munster and Donal Lenihan being full of sh1t are not mutually exclusive opinions.
Lenihan has had it in for all things Munster since the move to Limerick.
He may have some valid points, but most of it is drowned out by the chip on his shoulder. At this stage it's about time he built a bridge and got over it.
And @El_Duderino 09 Munster gave contracts to 12 academy players over the last two summers. You need to forget about what was happening years ago and look at what's happening now.
Match thread here: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225126/urc-round-9-connacht-vs-munster-saturday-jan-1st-5-15pm-premier-sports-tg4-urc-tv/
Dda and rg where always gor two years so retaining them wasn't on the cards. Go look at the team for this weekend 3 homegrown players 22 or under in the starting team and a bench full of young homegrown players.
10 of the starting 15 are homegrown and 14 of thr darting 15 is irish qualified.
Yeah bit what level of quality are those players? Are they going to help munster take the next step to winning trophies? There have been a few great talents over the last few years combined. Coombes, and Casey being stand out examples. Those 2 are even pushing for Ireland matchday squad inclusion. But that's as good as it gets. Are there any recent munster academy graduates getting regular Ireland game time, for example?
I think Alex Kendellen is the only starter in the most recent ireland u20s team from munster's academy. He's a fine player with a bright future ahead of him, but that's not the volume of players necessary to win things.
Saying they promoted the 12 best players doesn't tell you anything about their quality. I think munster needs to produce more players at higher quality. It's hardly a contentious issue in the real world but you could get people to argue almost anything on Boards.
Nobody willing to engage on the point about coach retention? Maybe Lenihan is right on that point?
As you writing off retaining RG and DDA? Poor aul Donal Lenihan was called "full of sh1t" a few posts ago because the poster mistakenly thought Lenihan suggested they were leaving. I wonder if they'll call you "full of sh1t" for suggesting the same thing...
We've had the same head coach for 5 years. That's almost unheard of in professional rugby. Larkham will have done 3 years when he leaves.
Declan Kidney did stints of 4 years and 3 years.
Coach retention isn't the issue you're making it out to be. We're no different to any professional rugby club when it comes to coaching turnover.
They came in for two years they where never staying beyond that. I'd have told you as much 3 years ago when they signed.
OK. So coaching turnover isn't the problem (I was pretty clear to not limit it to head coach to include the likes of Larkham, Flannery, Jones etc. but that's ok), player development isn't the problem. What ARE the problems? Or are there a problems at all?
Man this has been gone over again and again on this thread. Munster had issues for years. There where changes made to the development structure now every year the squad is getting quality homegrown players.
Munster fan are generally very happy with the academy currently. I'm jot sure what you think the standard should be but 99% of clubs would murder for the talent we are currently producing
@El_Duderino 09 Which coaches in particular do you think it's poor that they didn't retain?
In most of those cases, I'm not sure what more Muster could have done?
No issue there then? What are the issues? Or are there any issues?
Part of me wonders I'd Lenihan wrote an article talking about how there's no problem with player development and no problem with the coaching staff retention, this thread would be hopping with reasons why those two aspects are falling apart.
No issues at all
Christ almighty. Did you actually read the post properly? I quite clearly mentioned Larkham, who last time I checked isn't the head coach.
And if you are going to ignore the fact that 12 players have progressed from the academy in the last two years, because it doesn't suit your argument, then I'm done with you.
Lol. Fair one. It's probably boring having to follow rugby all the way to the final rounds of tournamemts.
Your the only one that disagrees with thr rest of us. Given you came in talking about the lack of youth I suspect your not familiar with the situation at all
OK. So coaching seems to be going fine.
What ARE the problems? Or are there a problems at all?
Ahh piss off you know nothing about munster rugby
I didn't ignore the point that 12 players were promoted, I'm pretty sure i referred to it more than once. I even acknowledged that 2 of them are near the Ireland squad.
I did question the quality of those players. But you don't seem to have acknowledged that at all.
I suppose I am. Does that mean you're all totally happy with the current situation? You've said you can't even identify anything to improve. "No issues at all" you said when asked if you could think of any issues.
I didnt say nothing could improve i said there are no issues.
The youth system is working well at the moment anyone on here who follows munster knows that. You seem to only know who two of the 12 lads given senior contracts are so for you to be arguing with people who do would suggest your being disingenuous
Nope, I never said coaching was fine. That's just a strawman.
The point I was making was that details matter. And when you look at the specifics, I don't think things are nearly as bad as you're making them out to be. Or that the blame can be laid at Munster's door as much as you seem to want to.
Again, which coaches do you think it's poor that they didn't retain? And what more could Munster have done in those scenario's?
I know about more than the 2 lads but I was questioning the quality of the 12 (which has been ignored by yourself and the other poster). If the best 2 are nearly getting into Ireland matchday squads, what does that say about the quality of the academy graduates? I've said this already, if you're not engaging with the posts, then maybe it best we leave it here. Enjoy the road to the early knockout rounds if that's what you aspire to. It lengthens the summer break for you anyway. Enjoy.
This is getting Jesuitical. I'm not sure how to ask the questions to just get honest answers. The other poster said there were no issues but then too issue that there was nothing to improve (as if that wasn't exactly what i was asking).
You said munster couldn't have done anything more to retain them and munster is the same as any other club in head coach rentention. So do you think there are issues surrounding coaching (and just for the pedants, I'm asking if there are aspects which could be improved, what you think those aspects are and if or how you think they could be improved.)
"If the best 2 are nearly getting into Ireland matchday squads, what does that say about the quality of the academy graduates?"
It says they're all really young and very early in the careers.
If you think academy graduates should be straight away challenging for Irish starting 15 spots, then the issue is with your unrealistic expectation, not with Munster's academy.
As for this: "Enjoy the road to the early knockout rounds if that's what you aspire to. It lengthens the summer break for you anyway. Enjoy."
I can't see how this is anything but trolling tbh.
OK. I would like to see munster improve and address the issues it has. I suppose the fact that I'm a little bit removed means I'm not as defensive about the notion that there are issues and it would be better to address them rather than shoot down any suggestions that problems exist.
Interesting to not that I asked several times what issues are there and between yourself and the other poster. You've failed to mention any issues. Maybe you can think of issues which could be improved but you're keeping them to yourself. It's hard to know because you haven't answered that question.
I'm not engaging? There's a hint off trolling off you tbh but on thr off chance your being genuine
We have a 20 year old starting at 7 tomorrow the most recent u20s captain
24 yo at 8 in already irish squads
Both squad 10s are 22 or under both tipped to be international quality
22 yo at sh he's benched for Ireland
A 21 year old second row being touted as a potential international
A second row starting tomorrow that turned 24 2 weeks ago but will make his 68th munster cap
The likes of barron and knox have potential also
A team of half academy players beat wasps recently in the champions cup with an Academy player winning motm
So you cam leave the smart ass "I guess short seasons are great" comments out
This is more concisending **** to boot. "I'm on the outside so i can fox your issues" munster have made European semi finals 5 of the last 6 years loseing to the eventual champions most of those years and generally finish top 2-3 in the urc munster in any given year may lose 4-6 games in total and that season will be viewed as a failure
Despite this theres been changing the youth system so that we are developing talent annually now and we are doing so from non traditional areas like West Cork
They got an external finance to pay for one of the best centers and one of the best second rows in the world for the last two years while there guys are coming through (unfortunately covid and Rgs injuries have hurt that)
Theve increasingly started backing players younger to develop them in senior matches to the point where for example they have given debuts to 3 out halves alone 21 or under In the last 2-3 seasons
Recently when like scarlets they could have called off a game during to denier players isolating they instead put out a team half of whom where academy players and with them bear a middable prem side
You took none of this into account but came in looking for where the issues where and dismissed anyone else's opinion because you "can admit the issues because your removed"
You haven't a clue what your talking about but feel happy to dismiss everyone else. I'll leave it there this conversations a waste of time
OK. I've asked you loads of times if you can think of any issues and you said you can't or if you can think of any, you're certainly not sharing them. That's fine. We're just fans. Luckily there are other people paid to identify issues and address them. These things take time.
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