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Cars or the planet? What would you choose?

[Deleted User]

COP 26 has just recently completed, with tiny hint at shared ownership. Here is point 8 of the declaration:

We recognise that alongside the shift to zero emission vehicles, a sustainable future for road transport will require wider system transformation, including support for active travel, public and shared transport, as well as addressing the full value chain impacts from vehicle production, use and disposal.

https://cop26transportdeclaration.org/en/?contextKey=en

The reasoning:

Transport accounts for a fifth of global greenhouse gas emissions and the International Energy Agency has said the sale of fossil fuel-powered cars will have to cease by 2035 if the world is to avoid surpassing dangerous global heating thresholds.

“Cop26 marks the end of the road for the internal combustion engine,” said Helen Clarkson, the chief executive of Climate Group.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/10/cop26-car-firms-agree-to-end-sale-of-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2040

In recent years some debate in the UK made points about shared ownership essentially being the only way to roll out electric vehicles etc.

2018:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2018-02-20/debates/D943EB59-0286-4FA3-A633-1F10096B4BBF/AutomatedAndElectricVehiclesBill

# Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

## Volume 789: debated on Tuesday 20 February 2018

To make automated vehicles possible, we will need some form of common ownership. We ought to reflect that in the insurance clauses in the Bill.

Its popped up loads of times with 'disruptors' seemingly wanting to corner the market

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/06/19/the-days-of-personal-car-ownership-could-be-numbered/?sh=6ca2abe35902

"Cities are also starting to introduce charges for using personal vehicles, with extra fees on the top for more polluting vehicles, such as London’s Ultra Low Emission Zone or Bristol’s Clean Air Zone. Allied to this, UK cities are adding lanes for cyclists, with varied reception from local inhabitants, which incentivize bikes while increasing traffic jams. There are lots of US cities where car ownership has been more of a hindrance than a benefit for years, with very little value for daily travel, only for occasional journeys out of town. If you live in Manhattan, for example, the need for a car is minimal, and actually more of a liability.

But our need to own one all the time is diminishing. The advent of autonomous taxis, which are already in commercial use in China 1, could make on-demand ride hailing even easier than the likes of Uber and Lyft have already made it. "

and the IEA

https://www.iea.org/commentaries/shared-automated-and-electric

But with growing adoption of shared (and potentially autonomous) mobility, the importance of policies designed to more directly incentivise the use of EVs over conventional vehicle travel will grow. These policies could include fuel taxes, zero-emission zones, road pricing, HOV and transit lane access, incentives for electric mobility services, or even restrictions on the use of conventional vehicles.

More recentlyl, the the last few days he UK must move away from “20th century thinking centred around private vehicle ownership” and towards shared mobility, Transport Minister Trudy Harrison MP has said

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2021/12/13/transport-minister-wants-to-end-culture-of-car-ownership

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/environment/2021/12/10/car-sharing-should-become-norm-drive-cut-carbon-emissions-says/

https://www.am-online.com/news/market-insight/2021/12/10/uk-must-move-away-from-car-ownership-says-transport-minister

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1535798/private-car-ownership-road-driving-changes-updates

We know Eamonn Ryan would like the local rural village to share a car and everyone in suburbia to cycle everywhere. He also says he doesnt want to build anymore motorways etc. My question to you is.....................if the choice becomes between private car ownership and climate change (as presented in the media) what would you choose?

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[Deleted User]

horses need energy too. No fossil energy, but food. This means that replacing tractors with horses would raise the need for additional agricultural land to grow feed for the animals (land that in turn has to be cultivated by extra horses). Tractors could derive their fuel from agricultural land, too, if we turn food crops into bio-diesel or ethanol. Therefore, to know whether it is a useful strategy to replace tractors by horses, we have to know how many extra acres would be needed to feed the horses, and how many acres would be needed to “feed” the tractors.

"Powering agriculture with tractors requires almost 2.5 times as much (bio)energy than powering agriculture with horses"

This calculation was done in a study published in the ‘American Journal of Alternative Agriculture’, eight years ago. With oil prices almost 4 times lower than today, the researchers might as well have been talking to a brick wall.

Conclusion: when everything is taken into account, powering agriculture with tractors requires almost 2.5 times more energy than powering agriculture with horses.

A Swedish study published in 2002 came to similar results: it concluded that a tractor-based agriculture consumes 67 percent more energy than a horse-based agriculture. The Swedish also calculated that the energy input in (local) agriculture increased 13-fold from 1927 to 1981, while total agricultural production in 1981 was only 2.4 times that in 1927. Find a link to the full pdf of the Swedish studies here.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/04/horses-agricult.html

So we are going back to horses?!

Seth Brundle

That is more realistic than expecting people to hop on a bicycle each time they want to travel from Waterford to Belfast.

Given that absolutely nobody has proposed such a means of travel, why are you being so melodramatic and posting such a suggestion to make your bias appear reasonable?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344605#Comment_118344605

Covering the whole country? Won't happen. Have you been around Ireland?

How many decades will an interlinked electric rail system take to build? We can't even build a metro to airport.

Yes horse and carriages spring to mind because they would work and have worked. They are roughly equivalent to motorised cars which replaced them at the beginning of the 20th century.

That is more realistic than expecting people to hop on a bicycle each time they want to travel from Waterford to Belfast.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344592#Comment_118344592

Are you that lacking in imagination that a functional public transport network doesn't spring to mind but horse and carriages do?

Plus for those that must use a car or van, there would be less traffic on the road.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344541#Comment_118344541

Right so what do you suggest? I suggest that driving a horse and carriage is more realistic than pedalling a bicycle over large distances.

When cars were first invented they were called horseless carriages.

You don't want cities to be dominated by motorised cars. But not all travel is within cities, i.e. within cycling distance.

So... horses

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344020#Comment_118344020

Who suggested abolishing cars? (The greens didn't in case you try and suggest that they did)

However, the majority of people driving into Galway and other cities across Ireland should not have this as their default commuting choice. We need to have sustainable choices and not pander to the motoring lobby (which I'll admit I used to subscribe to in the past) because cities should not be dominated by cars as they have done in the past. It is inefficient, dirty and completely unhealthy for both the driver and the people living in the surrounding neighbourhoods.

MarkHenderson

Motorbikes.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342420#Comment_118342420

People can't get around medium to long distances by bicycle.

If genuinely serious about abolishing cars we would need to bring back horse and carriages.

cnocbui

Could we just get rid of all the CO2 catastrophists instead? I'll take cars.

There are lots of equally fatuous and stupid questions you could ask; like which 5 billion are we going to cull for the sake of the planet? Which do you pick - hot water and home heating, or the planet?. Between cooked food or the planet, which do you choose? Elctricity and health care, or the planet?

Seth Brundle

Want less cars, provide an alternative fit for purpose public transport system ..

Like busses? But then you need to remove all the cars in order to make it fit for purpose. It wouldn't be fit for purpose if the busses had to sit in a traffic jam caused by people in cars!

Strumms

Build a public transport system fit for purpose if you want less cars. Still waiting on the metro (one line which we’ll see probably in another fûckin decade… no actually, 2034 is the accepted revised completion date…both my parents still working when it was approved, now they 1000% won’t live to see it….. they’d be mid to late ‘90’s….when it’s up and running….

provide an alternative to cars….

currently it’s gonna be 33 years since it was green lighted in 2001 to it being built and used…

Want less cars, provide an alternative fit for purpose public transport system ..

RandomViewer

I'm thinking my next car should have a huge engine and no cat, maybe 2 big straight through exhausts, cowcatcher like a western train for pushing cyclists aside,

SafeSurfer

Cars

joseywhales

I think car can be just used more economically. Like 5 years ago I bought an 06 golf for 3k, it is all I need, has decent mpg, handy to park, Ive even loaded it up at Ikea and brought it on a ski trip. Over time I've replaced brakes, control arm, struts all in about 1k. Has over 200k miles on it. These cars will last for years with minor maintenance. If I had bought a new SUV I would be down thousands with depreciation. This golf is still going and parts are not expensive. If people buy boring Corollas, golfs and civics, and maintain them for twenty years, that would have a good environmental impact and you'll have your own car.

Markcheese

Can I not just vote that everyone else should get rid of their cars - and other climate change influencing lifestyle choices , ?

Leaving me free to drive around on empty roads in a giant pick-up truck , eating steak sandwiches and running my air-con with the window open .... Yee-haw...

Atlantic Dawn

Get rid of the commercial production of meat instead.

dodzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342420#Comment_118342420

Poll for your favourite car.

"Get rid of the car. Get a bike"

FFS 🙄

Greyfox

It would be great to get rid of most cars are get more people cycling

MakersMark

I choose my truck over the planet.

But that's not really the choice though, is it?

atilladehun

In cities there's definitely a market for not owning cars but using them, especially now with WFH. Being able to book a regular car at a lower price than a taxi, or monthly repayments, insurance, petrol and then tax will become an option in the future. Especially with technology and automation.

This doesn't mean it's for everyone so don't panic. The market will determine this one. Ownership will still exist and it will be a gradual changeover.

As you've linked, the whole world will change here, Eamon Ryan will have very little say in it.

daheff

I'm choosing a helicopter. Less traffic.

PsychoPete

Cars but once they aren't electric

[Deleted User]

3 lite American Lincoln every single time. The electric cars at the moment are more polluting as the electricity is mainly got from burning fossil fuels. When the world gets serious about nuclear i may change

[Deleted User]

Is it possible to add a poll in the new boards setup