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Is communism as bad as people say

Harryd225

Please read the whole thing or don't bother commenting as the bottom part is important.

I don't think most people understand what communism is, it's a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

There are two classes in society, the working class, who make up the majority of the population within society and must work to survive, and the capitalist class, a small minority who derives profit from employing the working class through private ownership of the means of production. The theory is that communism would put the working class in power and in turn establish social ownership of the means of production.

Along with social democracy communism became the dominant political tendency within the international community by the 1930s with generally one side (the west) advocating for social democracy and the other side advocating for communism.

Most people base their opinion on communism on propaganda from the cold war mainly based around the failed soviet model of communism although most academics and economists, among other scholars, posit that the soviet model under which these nominally Communist states in practice operated was not an actual communist economic model in accordance with most accepted definitions of communism as an economic theory but was in fact a form of state capitalism, basically true communism has never been in existence.

Basically the theory is that communism would hand back the power to the people rather than the top 1% who maintain control and thrive under social democracies and have most of the wealth and influence over the population.

It's said that social democracy is a sort of slavery designed to keep the majority of wealth and power in the hands of the few, The wealthiest 1% of Americans controlled about $41.52 trillion in the first quarter, according to Federal Reserve data. Yet the bottom 50% of Americans only controlled about $2.62 trillion collectively, which is roughly 16 times less than those in the top 1%.

In theory if communism could actually work the way it is said could possibly work, the top 1% would never allow it to happen as it would strip them of most of their power and influence.

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Tony EH

Communism, in the theoretical sense, sounds fine for the most part. Which is why it appealed to a large amount of people, especially the underprivileged and the "underclasses", in the early part of the 20th Century. It's no wonder that in the 20's and 30's, there were vast swathes of people around the world that believed it to be the way forward and embraced it wholeheartedly. On the back of the previous century and the events of the first 20 odd years of the 20th Century, a "fairer" system than anything that had come before sounded fantastic to the average person in the street.

It's also no wonder that the powerful and wealthy with Europe and elsewhere feared it so much as they had the most to lose.

However, it's not necessarily the theory that's the problem. It's who it's been practised by throughout history that's led to Communism being such a dirty word among some. Any political theory can be seized upon by nefarious entities and used to garner support and it's true that the likes of Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot used Communism (or at least their version of it) as a means to gain and retain power, which is all that they were truly interested in in the first place. And I think that it's fair to say that had, say Russia, not fallen under a Stalinst rule that it would have been a vastly different country during the 20th Century. Stalin being Stalin, of course, tended to eliminate any opposition or even perceived opposition and was pursuant to a dictatorship, using Communism as a means to appeal to the masses.

In any case, I think most people would rather marry a mix of Socialism (as opposed to Communism) with some regulated Capitalism as a preferred method of governance/economy. It's clear that unfettered Capitalism is generally a bad thing for the majority and more and more people are coming to that realisation every day. People who are ok with Capitalism, so long as they're alright Jack, when suddenly find themselves priced out of a market, start to reassess their belief in it and then develop an interest in other ways.

But I would reckon that most people would be broadly in favour of a national health service and also in favour of some sort of state welfare for citizens. I would say the most people would rather that essential services remain out of the hands of privatisation as much as possible. However, I also think that most people would like the ability to run a private business without too much state interference as well.

The issue is is that far too many people have had their ideas shaped by cheap American politics. Politics for 5 year olds that deals in binary terms. A reductionist and simplistic approach that terminates any kind of nuance or understanding and one that has a penchant for imparting information through the use of buzzwords and simple phrases. It's a Cold War 1950's "Communism" with "Reds under the bed" and "Yellow Peril" that a lot of people think of when they hear the word. Or even when they hear the word socialism.

In the end though, I don't believe that Communism, if practised to the fullest extent, could truly work, as one of the tenets of it is the abolishment of all private property, which is something that differentiates it to Socialism, that would naturally have a much broader appeal. Even to many, many, on the left of politics, the word "Communism" has them bristling with unease as they would see it as really a step too far.

[Deleted User]

Everyone earning exactly the same, whether doctor or teacher or shop worker or child minder or brick layer? No private enterprise - everything state run? That's not a fair system in my opinion. And of course neither is unfettered greed and the hugely uneven distribution of wealth.

There's a middle ground - it's in Scandinavia... even here to an extent: good social welfare system, but cost of living much too high.

[Deleted User]

Human beings would not be where we are today without communism.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254681#Comment_118254681

What you are saying does not hold up as the soviet Union did not implement communism they only implemented a few dma aspects of it.

Also aside from any of that, you do realise Sinn Féin is not communist? Judging by your post you seem to think Sinn Féin is a communist party.

Do you think that the party most likely to be running the country after the next election is going to implement communism?

[Deleted User]

What's a 100 million deaths between friends.

Richard Hillman

Ultimately it fails because men (and to a lesser extent women) have a biological urge to be the alpha male. You want to run the steel factory, you want to become the doctor, you want to become the policeman, you want to become the politician. Ultimately your status is the prime factor of your biological urge to mate and reproduce. And you want to reproduce with as many healthy females as possible.

Communism ignores human nature.

touts

I've yet to meet anyone from Eastern Europe who thinks Communism was anything but a disaster for them. That alone should tell you everything you know about communism and hardline socialism. Several have told me they think Irish people are absolutely insane to be seriously contemplating putting a coalition of the likes of Sinn Fein and PBP, Rise etc into power.

One lad I worked with told me he'll leave Ireland of that ever happens because he explained the thing about socialism/communism is it is like a religion. They firmly believe they have the answer to all lifes problems and know what is best for the people even when the people disagree. So once they get into power it is almost impossible to get them out because they don't believe that the people know what is best.

So Marxism/Communism while claiming to represent the people actually has at its core a very dim view of the intellectual ability of the people. Add to that an inherent paranoia also at the heart of the philosophy that all powerful evil capitalists are out to oppress and brainwash the people and cannot be trusted. That means socialism looks for traitors and enemies of the people everywhere. They use that as the excuse when democracy throws up a result at the next election that should vote them out of power. The core principles of the socialism/communism faith say that can only happen when capitalist agents have fooled the people into voting against what is best for the people. So to protect the childlike people the only answer is to remove democracy and to institute a police state to root out the enemies of the people who turned them against the true socialist faith.

So to answer your question. Communism is not as bad as many Irish people say. It is far far worse. If you ever want proof listen to what most east Europeans who grew up under communism/socialism say.

Triangle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058220773/is-communism-as-bad-as-people-say

It's a fantastic theory and one I'm all behind.

But, and it's a big but - human nature currently doesn't progress it.

The greatest achievements we've had (and cause of so many issues) have come from free trade and letting the thinkers progress.

Also, the socialist areas have shown a lack of free will (so far). So making a tech inventer work as a school janitor doesn't work.

Cuba might have been a success except for America - but it's again theory.

I'd be all for a more socialist model, except where history has shown we as humans don't work well in that regard and are prone to tribalism.

And the collapse of the USSR has shown the ones in power grabbed the businesses when it collapsed. Showing their want for riches and power.

But it's a great theory and I'd love to see it successfully done.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254654#Comment_118254654

Who knows? I think so, you see the biggest problem that causes crime is wealth and poverty living so close to each other naturally breeds crime, people believe the system is not fair and they have been given the s***** end of the stick so they simply don't respect the society they live in.

If we had true equality, not some false sense of equality based on race/gender then I'm certain people would have more respect for one another.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254656#Comment_118254656

I don't think you are wrong to think that, but this isn't a binary choice between (rampant unbridled) capitalism and (only works in theory) communism.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254619#Comment_118254619

Maybe that is wrong I'm not sure but I think it's also wrong for the top 1% to have over 16 times more wealth than the bottom 50% who certainly aren't working harder than most of the bottom 50% and mostly have that wealth due to the extra privileges they were born into/with.

The J Stands for Jay

Is human nature even capable of communism?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254621#Comment_118254621

Take it up with the op.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254601#Comment_118254601

Missing the point of the whole thread

osarusan

tbf, advocates of communism are forever saying that this country or that one wasn't real communism.

And I'd agree to a certain extent, but if real communism is something that has never existed, or maybe even, can never exist beyond theory, that's a fundamental weakness right there.

And the reasons why it has never extended beyond theory need to be explored. Maybe it's wrong for a heart surgeon to feel that the years of training and importance of their job entitles them to greater earning power than say a street sweeper, but they feel that way nonetheless.

Adhamh

Let's all have a great thread comparing communism in theory to capitalism in practice