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Child Item

Cash only businesses

Jeremy Sproket

Why are there still businesses in this day and age not accepting card?

Merchant fees used to be prohibitively high, but nowadays, some companies like SumUp charge negligible amounts.

I've often walked into businesses and asked beforehand if they take card, some say "no, but there's an ATM across the street" ... I'm not withdrawing €50 cash (often the minimum amount in some ATMs) just to spend a few Euros on a takeaway or something else. When they suggest the ATM, I just politley tell them that I'll take my custom to a business that operates in 2021 instead of 1921.

Businesses that only accept minimum payment by card also annoy me.

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nj27

Not accepting cards is an outrageously chad and alpha move.

StupidLikeAFox

Revenue have a very advanced analytics system called REAP which analyses the data available to them, eg banks accounts, tax returns etc.

Further info here: https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/assist-us/reporting-shadow-economy-activity/what-revenue-is-doing.aspx

Big Gerry

The Travellers only seem to deal in cash.

Without cash I don't see how Travellers would be able to operate.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194185#Comment_118194185

You can analyse as much as you want. However Revenue need physical proof to make a judgement. A lott of small businesses line taxi drivers, barbers, hairdressers, takeaways etc only stay in business because they are able to take a bit of cash out of the business. It is mostly used for day to day spending, some of the shopping, phone credit for children, it makes the difference at Christmas.

If Revenue hounded them a lot of these small businesses would close up shop. A barber even if he averaged 3-4/hour for a 45 hour week in a rural setting he be lucky to turn 2k/week, technically about 240 is Vat.

If his rental was 200/week, public liability 40-50/week, Electricity, phone, water, rates another 150/week, you ate back to 1600/week. Now if he might as well close down from the 24 Dec until 5-6th January. There are 6 other bank holidays and give him 2 weeks holidays in the year. That 5 weeks that have to be covered. So take 160/week for that. January into mid February are hard months on those type of small businesses as people are tight for money so he be back 500-1k in turnover each week. That 5k or another 150/ working week that has to be covered.

He probably has other expenses as well clipper, scissors, barbers chairs, decor in the building are all costs. It's unlikely he have a steady footfall that will have him busy Tuesday to Thursday, Fridays evening and Saturday will be busy most of the year all right.

If he is lucky and can skim 100-150 in cash out of the business it as good as it gets. He put enough through the books to cover his drawing and his costs and liabilities.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195089#Comment_118195089

I don't disagree with any of that, however if your barber overdoing it is declaring income of 30k but there are card transactions showing up from different countries, or he is not lodging any money or he is lodging money and not spending it etc this could raise a red flag on their system.

Im guessing a bit on the scenarios, but its an automated system to raise red flags and identify candidates for "random inspections"

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194185#Comment_118194185

Yep. And if you do not give them your bank statements they will put a freeze on your account and go get them themselves.

Wanderer78

if we go completely cashless, would that mean it would be easier to control our access to our money?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195593#Comment_118195593

It amazes me when lads do not understand the tax system. If you are turning over any serious amount of money you are using a accountant. Accountants go through all your bank accounts unless you do not show them one. However if you do not and ever transfer money into or out of your accounts that you declare he will pick it up and is obliged to get you to make a declaration.

Using cash to avoid tax has limits. You can only use it for limited spending. You may try to reincorporate it into the business by maybe paying cash for inputs but this has a few issues, any money spend cannot be used on receipts in the account or cannot be used to buy a registered vehicle, truck, car, tractor etc to any great extent.

TBH cash is in the halfpenny place compared to other methods of avoidance/evasion. Larger entities can pay older children/young adults wages, transaction put through the accounts, a few days away that goes down as a business meeting, a night out that goes down for entertainment. Painting or decorating that goes down as a business expense

The small sole trader skimming a couple of hundred in cash ever week is at nothing in comparison. I cannot understand why people get upset over him taking cash. It may be that which keeps his business going especially in small rural towns or villages. That is why I always pay such businesses cash. If the local barber shuts down I could have to go ten miles to get my hair cut

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195722#Comment_118195722

How do the travellers get away with not paying tax but still drive top of the range cars ?

Stovepipe

They buy them cash in hand in the UK or from small dealers here. Not impossible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195722#Comment_118195722

The thing is, when you know that the "sole trader" is a publican or shop owner/farmer/sells turf/sells timber/sells Christmas trees/works in a quarry for cash and has land (inherited, has no mortgage and invariably is renting out property or land for cash) and more importantly, sites for sale. Dresses like a bum,most days but is quietly wealthy and regards it as his duty to avoid tax at all costs. Every town and village in Ireland has them.

Ubbquittious

Cash Ftw!!

Gorteen

I'm old-fashioned enough to prefer the feel of cash in the pocket. I also know it's too easy for me to spend "plastic" than hard cash...

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204151#Comment_118204151

Take it easy... now that's taking advantage of an manority... sure where you be goin in a pony and trap... anyway you cannot get a hybrid or electric pony....

[Deleted User]

The "only takes cash" crowd should swap notes with the "only takes cards" crowd and you could save yourselves a lot of time and threads.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195089#Comment_118195089

I know an inspector personally and she will tell me they know every cash business is on the take to some degree. You will only get queried if you throw up irregularities on REAP. Those include irregular VAT returns, director not paying themselves enough on paper, irregular expenses on your company accounts.

They can walk into your premises and download the data from your EPOS, I've seen them at work, they know all the tricks.

But make no mistake if you get caught in their sights, they are experts at piling it on. If you don't co-operate they will slap you with an estimate and its up to you to prove otherwise.

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207117#Comment_118207117

I suppose the travellers would say that only dealing in cash is part of their "culture".

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204581#Comment_118204581

Jesus christ, your talking about a one in a million, lucky farmer. Most are keeping cattle on a low margin, with no sites. And most not near a town/ village. And to keep that minimum wage going are at it 24/7 and drawing the sfp.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209190#Comment_118209190

Problem is some lad associate extreme thriftiness with tax evasion. A few year back an old lady died in her late 80's. Her husband had predeceased her by about 5 years. They had only the old age pension for the last 20+ years. There was nearly 200 k in the back account. Looking back at the bank/ credit union statements her family could see the money lodged every week. She was lodging +/-100 euro's out of her pension nearly every week even when she was widowed. There was very few withdrawals except for house insurance and TV licience.

A lot of them single farmers/ small business men especially if they do not smoke or drink spend nothing. They do not do take away coffees, go out for meals regularly, there only extraordinary spend might be to follow some sport or go for a bag of chips

[Deleted User]

Amazon threatening to ditch visa as a way of purchasing tells you everything..banks can charge what they want

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209448#Comment_118209448

...so whats it telling us?

[Deleted User]

Eh...it's telling us the fees they pay are too high!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209929#Comment_118209929

..or is amazon trying to use its position of power to force visa to adhere to amazons wants

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194746#Comment_118194746

Wouldn't surprise me if pavee point managed to get a necessity for exclusively cash dealing as a key part of " culture "

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209428#Comment_118209428

That goes for anyone who banks their income and doesn’t spend, absolutely nothing to do with farming or farmers.

Strumms

a pub about two kilometers away from me that I’d frequent only once or twice a year, up to pre covid and the last time I’m there was cash only... family who run it are seriously nice people, very community minded, I’d be just surprised if there was anything dodgy about it... they are an old school boozer and pride themselves on that fact, the taps they use looks like they are from 1949 even......

The downside being that it’s located in a quaint little housing estate and I’m looking on google maps and the nearest ATM is about 12 minutes walk away..so 25 min round trip if you forget to bring cash, or was as I’m actually just seeing on their FB they accept cards now.....

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195089#Comment_118195089

Ah, those poor guys, living hand to mouth, we should have a whiparound for the poor mites! Imagine, the misery of owning a taxi plate or being a self-employed barber or hairdresser! 🙄

The €150/week your barber friend is skimming off tax free is €7,800 a year. That has to be made up by PAYE workers who don't get to decide things are a bit tight coming up to Christmas, I'll just keep €100 off my PAYE, PRSI, LPT and USC this week. I have to earn over €14,000 to pay the €7.8k your mate has dodged.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213799#Comment_118213799

You can always join them set up a small business and work the system. I just gave an example of the way skimming works. As I point out it is in the halfpenny place compared to what companies or larger some traders can do by employing children when they reach 14+ and putting them on the books and using there tax allowances.

On the other hand I do understand that in small villages or townes that unless lads were skimming it would not be worth there while running such a business. In the example I gave on his turnover even if skimming a bit he be paying over 10k in vat. Because of the nature of his business he would be claiming back very little.

The black economy has existed as long as taxation has existed in one form or another. I just do not get caught up by it existance. I understand why it exists.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207069#Comment_118207069

Hear this regularly from cash people but I don't get it. A card does not gave you unlimited spending power. You can only spend what you have.

It's also not credit, it's your own money so why would you spend extra if using a card or your phone?

I also assume that people who go out with cash still have bank accounts and a card so they'd have that with them when they go out so I don't see what the difference is?

McGarnigle2020

A takeaway, shop or a pub that refuses to take card gets an A from me. Simply don't have time to be stuck behind some student taking three times as long to use tap and go. People cry that they can't afford a house but use a system whereby they can't even ascertain how much they have in the bank on a given day because there's dozens of pending payments not showing.

As for Apple/ Google pay using your phone, it just shows a lack of respect for other people in the queue.

Non cash methods are for idiots.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214002#Comment_118214002

No you cannot overspend what you have in an account on a card but you can clean out the account and continually do it. It's much easier to overspend. If you take 100,150 or 200 euro out as spending money once a week then it easier to budget IMO. Most experts helping people to manage money recommend that those that have money issues revert to cash.

If you reach Sunday evening with whatever amount of cash in your wallet you know it has to last until Thursday or Friday or whenever you take out what you decide your allowance is again. In such a situation it is easy to question every discretionary spend, whether it's a takeaway coffee, a packet of cigarettes, a newspaper or whatever.

The temptations with a card for some in that situation is to continue tapping away which limits your ability to save.

If you watch any money management programs it's is nearly always with cards that people are overspending with.