If you can change the fact as laid out below, I will change the term.
Look at the graphic again downcow. The areas where Unionists are the majority voted en block/en masse/as a group for Brexit.
BTW, before the vote was barely counted the UUP had about faced and were trying to out DUP the DUP on Brexit such was the scare they got about Unionist sentiment.
Moderate as Doug Beattie tries to be now as they attempt to bandwagon the opposite way again, they are still too afraid to stand outside the Unionist block/masse/group.
Francie it just makes discussions pathetic and pointless if someone just keeps arguing a point everyone can see is wrong and does not have the ability to admit it and move on.
I am not going to waste anymore time on this. Suffice to point out that all but one of the constituencies that you say voted en masse for brexit either had a pro brexit vote in the 50s% or indeed voted leave. One of the most unionist constituencies in ni voted remain. I would love to be more direct about your nonsense but I need to keep my nose clean. Sure you just post away about North Down etc voting en masse for brexit and other posters can google the facts for themselves
Nothing I can do about the term if you don't like it.
SOME unionist politicians backed it so even that Mano republicans doesn’t work for you. The uup did not back it.
now you are trying to muddy the waters to bring protocol into it. You were very clear. It was brexit and the AIA that you were referencing.
come on francie. Step out and admit you were wrong.
Thanks for the support google. Yes exactly an I guess it is very clear to francie from both mine and your posts that unionists did not vote en masse for brexit.
And Unionist politicians backed it and are against the Protocol.
Not sure why downcow is trying to back Unionism away from a, so far, very defined position. I think though that a split is forming.
85% of Catholics voted Remain compared to only 40% of Protestants, and 88% of people who describe themselves as ‘nationalist’ voted Remain compared to only 34% of ‘unionists’. Similarly, 87% of respondents who identify as Irish voted Remain, compared to only 37% of British identifiers.
The vast majority of leave votes in Northern Ireland were from unionists.
I am trying to bring you to a place where, when you are evidenced as patently wrong, that you can have the courage and integrity to say ‘apologies I was wrong’
you said, “Unionists vote en block when they see a threat/advantage to 'the Union'. As you say...the AIA, or Brexit.”
The facts are very very different. Only 40% of unionists voted for Brexit. Even counting only those unionists who actually went out to vote, still only 66% voted for brexit.
I’ll not hold my breath for you accepting you are wrong
No.
Why are you trying to pretend that it is not Unionists who own Brexit in Ireland.
I used the term ‘our people’ in reference to every person living in the Uk. Very different to francie saying unionists voted en masse for brexit. You don’t agree with him, do you?
Yeah, not unreasonable to point that out.
but here is what I was responding to “As loyalists I'd expect unionists to adhere to the decisions made by the democratic head of the UK?”
I suppose I was giving a bit of context where loyalist came out of and that expecting loyalists to conform is misunderstanding the term loyalist on ni context
I believe to you use term you yourself used is "your people voted for brexit".
Yet a few posts back you were claiming that such categorization was "sectarian".
Tom, you are also arguing something we have evidenced is rubbish. You are sectarianising the debate again. You are saying unionists want to keep the fenians down. For example are you saying that 75% of the alliance voters are trying to keep the fenians down? As 75% are unionist. Are you saying all the catholics who belong to or vote unionist are trying to keep the fenians down? Catch yourself on.
it is sad that a few on each side continue to sectarianise every issue in ni. I don’t know if they were traumatised or radicalised - I guess it’s a mix. The irony is, these are the very people on each side who are trying to keep either the ‘Fenians’ or the ‘huns’ down
So francie, before we move on. Will you admit that you were talking absolute nonsense when you said that unionists voted en masse on brexit?
Unionists' supposed 'loyalty' to the UK has always been a la carte. Unionists' principle motivation has been, for centuries, keeping the Fenians down and trying to maintain dominance of the Irish nation. That explains why the hardest of hard Brexits was grasped at while the NIP is considered a betrayal.
Who do you think the block in blue vote for downcow = Unionist politicians.
Now if you are finished protesting the obvious we'll get back to the original point, a split in the Unionist block.
How many do you think are on your side now - those who think the Protocol is great for NI and who don't want it gone?
Not a chance. Unionists are the classic desenters. ‘Protestants’ says it all. We will hold on to the right of everyone to challenge, protest and disagree with the government of the time. It’s the essence of a loyalist
the only quote similar to that is that not a single elected unionist is in favour. There’s about 200 elected and not 1 is in favour. Maybe they are just not as intelligent as you francie.
It read like building a case. Brexit is supposed to be done. He may be trying to explain to the faithful (Conservative voting Daily Mail edit Mail on Sunday readership in GB) why some more battling must be done with the EU dragon, in case they might not be excited by the fight any more and think its all a bit stupid/self-harming at this stage.
Methinks a little refresher to compare the difference in importance of a non-binding referendum versus Parliamentary Sovereignty might be in order, Downcow.
The Brexit referendum and the NI Protocol ARE entirely different....only one had actual legal standing thanks to how your self-professed mother of all parliaments that you're so pleased to belong to works.
Reduced to writing gung ho articles to those who think he is giving the EU what for.
Just more noise really. I'm sure those on the EU side must know what they are dealing with by now. I don't think it was a mistake to engage, but there should be lines drawn. A least they kind of did that with the UKs "Article 16" clever plan. Probably another line should be drawn some time next year if the UK tries to freeze the situation where it is now indefinitely, or they start more salami tactics.
Yes but the prime minister has been appointed by the UK democratic majority and is the appointed head of state to agree and sign international agreements. As loyalists I'd expect unionists to adhere to the decisions made by the democratic head of the UK?
Look at this article by Frost in the Mail on Sunday.
The headline seems a calculated threat?
Sefcovic made a big mistake when he said there were 'unintended consequences' caused by the protocol.
I think it was a mistake to reengage on the protocol. The Tory government take, take, take, offer nothing, and all the while talk shıt about you.
Some of the things you might not be able to accept are fundamental (EU law in NI post Brexit, authority of ECJ etc.). NI can't remain in EU Single Market without this, so if Unionists reject it there is no answer.
I think the other stuff you've criticised (bound up with customs checks and standards etc.) gets increasingly problematic and unworkable for NI the more the UK adopts a Brexit fundamentalist stance "i.e. we're not having anything whatsoever to do with them in the EU now - we're going to make a load of totally contrasting laws on everything under the sun, start a race to the bottom on different standards etc to try & grow the economy".
So repeating myself, I think what happens is in the hands of UK govt. (Johnson & Frost). If Unionists wish the agreement to survive, it is probably their ears they really need to get into rather than complaining to EU Commission/Martin/Varadkar/Coveney etc. Unfortunately I kind of doubt it would make any difference to the outcome though.
you are being pedantic. By ‘all of our people’ I meant that there was a referendum and our people decided to brexit.
and as for my claim that most remainers accepted the will of the people to brexit. I think that is very clear as the remainers had a very big majority in Westminster but basically to a man and woman voted to invoke brexit. That seems clear to me
See the big 'block' of blue? Work from there...I'm sure you will figure it out.
Look to your own political representatives claiming 'not a single Unionist is in favour......etc etc. I think you have made similar claims.
All of our people voted for Brexit.
erm, no they did not!
Most of the people in the kingdom who had voted to remain, accepted the will of the people expressed in the referendum , myself included.
Was a survey (or surveys) conducted to establish that most people have accepted the "will of the people"? I don't believe that the "will of the people" has ever actually been defined - maybe you can point us to where it was.
i honestly have no idea what point you are making. Are you implying that eg East Belfast is 48% nationalist and that the 52% vote for Brexit was all the unionists? Stop the riddles and explain yourself
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