Some of his passing from the base took that extra second at times. Other times it was snappy, particularly in their 22. Other times our forwards were not protecting or presenting the pill as best as they could, Argentina spoiled or disrupted a lot of our rucks. Go look at the rucks from the first half and the ball squirting out, hitting off legs. That's not all down to Murray - some of the ball he got handed was crap. Things tightened up after before and after half time as Argentina tired and we wore them down. Reading people during the game complaining he's slow when he's taking his time setting up for an exit boxkick from inside the 22... as if he should be flinging it wide rapidly in every scenario.
I don't think he'll be the number one going forward but I don't think he was as bad today as many are making out (or maybe even hoping) on here. Two boxkicks got us in behind them and eventually led to tries, but for a slapped ball down he was in for one himself and a break off a scrum where he then tracked play and got it again in the 22 eventually led to a score if my memory serves me right.
Casey had a much easier ride (as you'd argue it should be for a sub 9 when he comes on if the pack have done their job). His passing is snappier than Murray's generally anyway though. I'd be happy to see Casey in the 23 for the Six Nations, I think his time is coming soon and would be good to bed him in for (potentially) a World Cup squad.
It was all of our backs though. The wingers barely touching the ball in the first half and the amount of times 10 / 12 / 13 ran laterally looking for gaps (even doubling back on themselves) was something we haven't seen the last two weeks. That hesitation was down to Argentina having a set defensive line, which they had because our ruck speed was on average a few seconds slower.
I'd have liked to have seen Carbery and Casey for a bit to be honest. Wasn't convinced by Carbery but he wasn't helped at all by Murray. I'll watch the game back but as others have commented, I thought Harry Byrne seemed more decisive on the ball (execution aside) and we had more of a flow when he was on. That could be more down to Casey, it could also be down to Argentina being more fatigued at that stage.
“There is no other explanation in my mind why we regularly lost gain-line and why our backs seemed hesitant in possession (particularly at 10).”
I largely agree with your overall point Venjur, but no other explanation why 10 in particular seemed hesitant? Surely the obvious point is that we had a different 10.
(I’m not saying Murray’s ponderousness at times didn’t have an affect either, mind).
We were having more difficulty at the breakdown because Argentina were winning collisions against us in a way that Japan / NZ didn't. Argentina were winning those collisions because we weren't getting quick ruck ball, we weren't getting quick ruck ball because Murray was slowing it down at the back of the ruck. Wash rinse repeat.
Our ruck speed the last two weeks has been incredibly fast, from tackle, breakdown to delivery from 9. Our ruck speed was much slower today and a lot of that was down to Murray's ponderous play style. The last two weeks we've changed the point of attack across the pack as we carry towards contact, we did that today but it was less relentless and more predictable because of our slower ruck speed. There is no other explanation in my mind why we regularly lost gain-line and why our backs seemed hesitant in possession (particularly at 10). While Argentina were regularly offside, their line speed was a direct result of our ball delivery and that is very much down to Murray's.
Next Friday might tell us alot about Doak. If he starts v Leinster there is a fair chance his pack won't have dominance..
He looked a superstar in first few games but when Ulster were in trouble v connacht the last day out he was ordinary enough.. saying that no one from ulster was great really.
As per your question what sort of scrum half is it. The most common comparison he is getting is Ruan pienar and its not far off.
He is an excellant prospect. Over 6 foot tall. well able to control a game, great pass, has an eye for a try and excellent kicker. Might not be lightening fast at the base of a ruck but not slow either. Normally surveys the defence before he gets to the ruck not when he is there slowing it too much and mixes pass running and kicking fairly well.
Id imagine he will be the 2023 world squad bolter but not sure who misses out from the November scrum halves.
JGP's performances have been great but it must come with the caveat that he had it on a plate. Look at our ruck presentation today - how many times in the first half did it squirt out the side, players getting in the way of Murray picking it up etc. Once we got the upper hand the play flowed better.
I'd be interested to see how JGP goes against the likes of France/England in the Six Nations - but you'd have to say the starter's jersey is his to lose as things stand.
I can only recall one penalty against Porter today, which was a poor call as the argie clearly lost his bind.
In turn though we won what, 3?, scrum penalties ourselves? And we won plenty versus the all blacks through porters side last week
I don't think we've to much to worry to be honest from porter. I'd be much more worried about who his long term back up is going to be. Healy has another 6n in him at best, IMHO, and killer not being able to get ahead of him at this stage of healys career doesn't bode well going forward.
I hope we don't just default to having JGP as the no.1 SH. He's been a revelation the past few weeks, but there are other lads like Blade, who've been excellent who warrant a chance too.
Legitimate competition is what I want for the team going forward.
One worry for me is back up 9. It's important that we have a replacement/substitute for JGP who can keep up the tempo of our play. Murray isn't that player. He's a far more deliberate 9 who wants to assess the options he has when he gets to the ruck rather than get the ball out quickly. He didn't play well against Argentina mainly down to the slowness of his style. That had a knock on to what the rest of the side was able to do.
I wonder who should be the backup nine? Lots of options but far from clear who they should go with. Seems like we need someone similar enough to Gibson Park so our playing style doesn't change when he departs. Option A appear to be Murray right now but he is noticeably slower than Gibson Park and it does hamper us. Casey is next in line and while he brings great tempo and has great potential I'm not sure if he is ready to be the second choice nine at international level, Luke McGrath has to come into consideration - he stills seems ahead of Gibson-Park at provincial level and Leinster don't seem to alter their style when he play . Marmion maybe? What about Blade? Always struck me as a pacy player but probably needs to get ahead of MArmion first to be a realistic option. Cooney at Ulster has looked great for a few years, but think that possibility has passed, also not sure if his style is the pacy fast one that I'm thinking Ireland now need. What about Doak, lots of talk about him and his potential - what type of scumhalf is her?
Tedious game - great win.
Missed Henderson's physicality, leadership and scrumming.
Doris continues to seriously impress. Murray was so slow. So slow. Casey was a massive relief when he came on.
Carbery was in his hoop MOTM. Furlong was better and more important.
As a scrumming unit our front row still has some way to go. We coughed up penalties there against Japan and Argentina and I think it was on the LH side each time. Nothing to worry about, Porter just needs time to readapt, but I wouldn't expect much success against SA or France at the moment.
That was a pretty successful Autumn Series for us. The results and performances against Japan and New Zealand wer excellent. The performance against Argentina wasn't as good, but we saw some fine phase play in fits and starts.
We've bedded in a new style of play that gets the best out of the footballing skills from forwards and backs. Ringrose looks revitalised playing in his dual playmaking and running role. Doris and Kelleher have now proven that they have the ability to excel at test level. And JGP is now vital to the way we perform. His on the fly decision making and speed at which he gets the ball out if the ruck is now crucial to how we play. I also think we've potentially the best front row in rugby. Porter, Kelleher and Furlong are in incredibly athletic and can power through defenders, but also have the footballing skills to act as passing options.
Ire v Arg match thread here
Yes because it was never done properly. Plus you could say the same about the Lions
If the A team had a proper number of games and competition each season you could have players in the group with the view of moving up
Emerging Ireland, that's right! Forgot that! I did think it was "A" rugby. Might be worth doing something similar.
Yes. it had Emerging Ireland competing as a third irish side with games not even "A" status
Wasn't the Tblissi Cup a step even below the Churchill Cup? It was more like a 3rd team? Maybe I'm misremembering it.
Wouldn’t mind a cup like the Tbilisi cup for instance.
We did send a side to Tbilisi one year! It was not really challenging except that the Boks had a side, IIRC. Maybe that would be an option?
Players were more likely to play themselves out of Ireland contention than into it on the back of A games. They used to have one against England on the last weekend of January every year and I don't remember anyone really pushing their way into the senior team of the back of it.
What was good was the Churchill Cup. It helped develop some players for the senior squad. But that was in June/July when there was no domestic rugby, but it was useful for younger lads. But I doubt that that is what is being suggested here.
The A games were rarely great. They were normally a bunch of guys who were just thrown together. I honestly think the young lads would get more from playing a Champions Cup match or big URC play off or Inter Pro.
I wonder does our current approach lend itself well to A games? A shape that requires players to make good decisions within it is very different from a bunch of set plays etc.
A games tend to be very poor matches and not a step up from league games. The only real benefit is game time. Extremely difficult to play well and standout in a thrown together team.
From an Ireland point of view it would make sense. A senior team and then a second team to hopefully push players forward. Getting better teams for the young lads to play will help them move up towards full internationals
Personally I hope not. I think the A teams have had their day.
That said the current gap between URC Rd 5 and Rd 6 is far too long and needs filled with something.
Are they thinking of a shadow tournament? Like a 6nations, but for the "A" sides?
Wolfhound games in the past have always been a disappointment despite some tasty line ups. You’re generally just throwing 15 players together who aren’t completely on the same page. The focus is always the first 15. Any decent moves will be kept under wraps etc
I remember buzzing to watch this one a few years ago. Wasn’t too good.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/31045244
Yeah. He's looked pretty good playing 7s. I hope the door would be kept open for him. Eddie Jones included uncapped 7s player Ruaridh McConnochie in his World Cup squad.
Jack Kelly? Is that the u20 captain from 2017?
This talk of Ireland 'A' returning is interesting. It's probably necessary with less provincial gametime to go around. I wonder could anyone use it as a springboard to break into the main squad ahead of the World Cup.
You could pick a pretty good shadow squad from the following:
1s: Josh Wycherley, Peter Dooley, Jeremy Loughman, Callum Reid, Michael Milne
2s: Dave Heffernan, Tom Stewart, Diarmuid Barron
3s: Marty Moore, Keynan Knox, Roman Salanoa, Vakhtang Abdaladze, Jack Aungier
4s, 5s: Thomas Ahern, Jack Dunne, Ross Molony, Gavin Thornbury, Cormac Izuchukwu, Joe McCarthy, Niall Murray
6s: David McCann, Josh Murphy, Jack O'Donoghue, Cian Prendergast
7s: Scott Penny, John Hodnett, Alex Kendellan, Conor Oliver
8s: Max Deegan, Paul Boyle, Jack O'Sullivan
9s: Nathan Doak, Caolin Blade, Colm Reilly
10s: Ben Healy, Jack Crowley, Michael Lowry
11s: Mack Hansen, Rob Lyttle, Alex Wootton, Conor Philips
12s: Tom Daly, Conor O'Brien
13s: Stewart Moore, Thomas Farrell
14s: Tommy O'Brien
15s: Shane Daly, Jimmy O'Brien, Ethan McIlroy, Jamie Osborne, Jack Kelly
Some good players there. The style of play Ireland are employing under Farrell would suit Deegan and Penny down to the ground. Maybe rather than having a completely separate squad they would use the 'A' games to give gametime to the full squad players who just missed out, though - the likes of Zebo, Hume, Frawley, Kilcoyne, Baird, Coombes this time around.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w6.vanillicon.com/v2/6081e4655739e0887aaf16222f88b015.svg)
