😁😁 Says the poster that just ignored the fact that he had been called out for being 'wrong' on the very thread he was responding to.
BTW, I was making a general observation on posters making claims of 'no change' when responding to Tom's excellent and true point that much had changed in how people were treated. 'no change in northern Ireland' is the fairly big clue to that in the sentence.
If you thought it was specific to that point he made, that is on you, not me.
In fairness DC yes it is the protocol or nothing. The reason being that this was negotiated and signed by the British PM and his team who then presented it to the people of the UK as an "oven ready deal". Some people may be dumb enough to believe that the British government were manipulated and tricked into signing this by the evil EU but most people don't accept that. This was the deal agreed and you don't get to change it by pretending you were too thick to understand what you were signing.
Sure the EU will respond but so too will the US government who will tell the UK to stick with it.
Any chance you could share a list of those "terms" with us?
Are they normal terms like prosperity, stability, improvements in infrastructure/ education/ health/ trade/ standard of living ??
None of those things were taken into account when Unionist politicians pushed for a "Leave" vote. As usual (as with everything from street signs to Covid restrictions to what historical murder to tweet about) there was only 1 consideration.
I'd be interested in any other considerations that would make Brexit palatable to a reasonable person in the North. (I'll work on the presumption that you are that person)
Personally i am of the opinion that when the British government trigger Article 16 and try and scupper the NIP, it will end up galvanizing the EU and bringing us closer together; exactly the opposite what the British expect.
Your quote was that “Republicans have had 100 years to convince “the people of Northern Ireland” “. So, given that many of those people are very much convinced of the merits of a United Ireland (not a majority I’ll grant you, but you didn’t say you were speaking for the majority) you very much are conflating “the people” with the Unionist people. If you had said the majority, then fine, but you didn’t. You want to ignore those people who have a different view.
''The bit you are still not grasping is that it was a Uk-wide referendum. It is diengenuous to start carving up regions''
Hmm, but in 1921 it was OK to carve up the Irish nation despite the majority of it wanting to leave the UK.
It's also ok to pick and choose freedoms available to all in the rest of the UK. Selective and hypocritical.
Wait until after a UI referendum when they'll be demanding counties Antrim and Down be separate from the rest of the 6.
Absolutely, and issues such as Brexit, a process undertaken at Westminster, must apply equally to NI as it does the rest of GB, even if the people of NI have explicitly stated that they don't want it, because to do otherwise "damages our relationship with the United Kingdom".
However, Westminster mandating on bringing NI into line with the rest of GB regarding issues such as same-sex marriage risks "undermining the political institutions of Northern Ireland" because " the purpose of devolution is to allow the different parts of the UK to make laws that are appropriate for that part of the country."
Both quotes above attributable to one Sir Jeffrey Donaldson...
Or the last ditch option they have persuaded partitionists on, that despite 100 years of doing the exact opposite - that they will be good democrats in an Independent Northern Ireland.
'Our Wee County'
Thankfully that is not possible because of the GFA. No need to worry about London renaging on that commitment too. Once they can wash their hands of Ireland they sure won't be trying to move goal posts to allow a part stay.
Agreed, but there does seem to be a contingent within the unionists and some Tories to torpedo the GFA.
Thus torpedoing the possibility of a UI along with it.
Not sure how torpedoing the GFA would prevent a referendum on a United Ireland, if anything the opposite is true. Unionism was a majority and in a much more secure position than it is now when the GFA was signed. There is nothing on the other side of the GFA for the unionist minority and 30ish% of people who self-identify as 'British', certainly nothing as generous as the GFA.
Let Unionists sink their own lifeboat if that's what they want.
The notion that the natives had a hundreds years to convince the planters to switch over, but failed, is astounding.
"Republicans have had 100 years to convince the people of ni that they’d be better in s United island. They have failed miserably"
It's been a slow burner for me today. The sheer cheek of it when you look at history.
And DC considers himself a moderate. One positive consequence of Brexit has been the exposing of 'moderate' Unionism to the rest of Ireland; the wider population have gotten a crash course on what our people in the north have been putting up with for a century from 'moderate' unionists.
Seems even you are happy with a devolved NI.
No. I'll be happy when UK jurisdiction in Ireland is ended permanently. The GFA is the mechanism for that, devolution is a holding pattern.
There are 2 concrete things. First, you really don't like NI Protocol arrangement and want it gone.
Second, even though it is now consigned to oblivion, you made a rambly post about Daylight saving time (my memory may be unreliable...but think nub of it was how Ireland must follow what is done as regards the clock changes in UK, because it shares this island with NI).
I am not "dreaming things up", just reasoning there was some kind of a loose connection to the topic in there, that you kind of expect Ireland will have no choice but to again closely follow the UK govt. and its decisions on other matters like goods regulations, customs processes, trade + whatevever else for sake of NI once the Protocol is killed off.
Hard to know if the protests are growing in size. Tonight's one.
I not sure if you are disagreeing with me. I know lots of people in ni want a Ui. My point is that number has not increased in 100 years.
we are always told the surge is coming ‘next year’
I never said it was ok. I can safely say that I can’t think of the establishment or a nation in the world that was ‘ok’. It usually was the strongest won which is not nice. Difference in our case is that your parliament agreed to allow us to decide. That was very considerate of you.
I would agree with you on that in the remote possibility a Ui ever happens. What is a very is all or part of ni becoming devolved ie you can pay for us but we’ll do our own thing 😀
That doesn’t torpedo a Ui. Quite the opposite. While we have the gfa there is zero chance of a Ui because we decide. Take it away and I’d be nervous
I have found something to agree with you on Tom 👍
Well, I’d query if that is the case. You think the majority in favour of the union is as big as it was 30/40/50 years ago ? I really doubt that. On the other issue, my point was simply that you can’t baldly state “the people of Northern Ireland” haven’t been convinced of the merits of a UI, when clearly quite a lot of them have., I.e you can’t speak for all the people. You can say you speak for the majority, which is fair enough. How big that majority is now is open to debate I’d suggest.
So that is really quite enlightening. I does show how some republicans do not believe in equality or my equal status as a unionist. How dare unionists not accept that nationalists views are more important.
the mask slipped a bit there. Supremacist thinking
Yeah that’s not quite how it happened is it ? It was a done deal by the time the Northern parliament (which had already been established by the UK Govt don’t forget) took their vote. And yes, you can say the Treaty was accepted by the Irish negotiators, but they were hardly bargaining from a position of strength. It’s been stated before what Lloyd George’s alternative was.
Unionists have had a 100 years to convince the rest to stay...failing pretty badly if you ask me. They are fighting with even their own to avoid being cast adrift...and that is their own assessment of the current situation. 😁
Wrong on both.
I quite like many aspects of the protocol. I want improvements negotiated.
my point about roi following gmt was simply pointing out the fact that roi cannot be as EUish as Paris or Berlin ( to play on the ‘as British as Finchley’). You will always follow the Uk on many things like gmt that the rest of the Eu will not. Would you agree?
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