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Child Item

Emigrate with young family to Sweden vs France

eatsshootsandleaves

I was wondering whether anyone might have some advice about how to go about making a major relocation decision.

We are expecting our second baby this coming March. We own a small house in the city centre but with our growing family, we'd love to move to a suburb. We have a small mortgage and have built a fair bit of equity since we bought it, but because only of us is working, we can't get a mortgage to sell/buy elsewhere in an area we like. Rental prices are insane and even though we'd get some rent for our place, the rental market seems brutal and so unstable at the moment, we'd prefer to avoid it.

Childcare is also so expensive and unavailable so even if we both get jobs, it would be a struggle to get childcare.

Most of our friends with kids have now moved out of the city so we also feel a bit isolated. Obviously Covid has not helped with regards to wellbeing either. We've had a nice enough lifestyle but are feeling very stuck, mainly due to the housing and childcare issue.

With a year's maternity leave on the horizon, we're considering whether it might be a good time to try our hand at living abroad for a few months and if we like it, sell up and buy in cash over there, and getting permission from workplace to work for them fully remotely over there or finding work elsewhere. If we get childcare sorted, we would then both be free to look for work.

We've been researching Sweden and France.

Pros of Sweden are the very affordable childcare, more affordable housing market (rent and purchase), great healthcare and education, beautiful nature, outdoors culture, and lots of facilities for families. We're considering a suburb in Gothenburg as people are considered friendlier, it's more affordable and climate is slighlly milder so we have a visit planned next month. Cons are the harsh winters, the need to learn swedish in order to find work, high taxes and it can apparently take quite long to get to know Swedes. We're both good at languages and willing to learn Swedish although we know it would take time. We've compared cost of living and apart from alcohol, Gothenburg is the same or less expensive than Dublin.

Pros of France are that my wife speaks French having lived there before, the food and wine culture, reasonably affordable childcare and property, great healthcare, and the diversity of the regions. Cons are the bureaucracy, the occasional chaos of France and its love of strikes, and how stuck in their ways French people are! We haven't decided on a region or area yet. We had originally thought Brittany or Normandy but since Covid, lots of wealthy Parisians have been buying up property there for weekend getaways so property prices are much higher than before. We're open to family-friendly destinations as long as they're reasonably accessible and not too hot in the summer. We'd love to be somewhere that is cyclist-friendly too.

We've heard you really need to give living in a new place about 2 years to get settled in which would give us enough time before our toddler started school.

As long as we have enough to get by on, we're not too fussed about making lots of money is good considering how high taxes are in both countries! We have about €30k savings which buys us a small amount of time if both of us don't get work straight away. Priorities are lifestyle, time with the kids, good work/life balance and finding a nice home.

Any thoughts welcome as we're feeling quite overwhelmed about how to go about making the decision. Thank you.

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ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964746#Comment_117964746

Weird. I must report fraud/theft to the Garda.

because I have Property tax taking from my wages every month.

its cheaper than some places ad bins are they included , they are extra …

[Deleted User]

I don't know if its mentioned already, but many employers have clawbacks of maternity top ups paid if employee does not return to work for a minimum time after maternity leave ... your wife should check her employment contract in case it applies.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958929#Comment_117958929

PRSI is 4%.

The 8% USC starts at about 70k.

It is true that earners here reach high MTR very early. They reach 48.5% at 35,300, and then move to 52% at 70k approx.

This is crazy, people earning less than average earnings facing nearly 50% MTR.

It is maybe why many people think Ireland is a high-tax country.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965619#Comment_117965619

so 52%, with a VAT rate of 23%, with the dearest mortgages, worst healthcare, (probably) smallest military spend..

Geuze

52% marginal income tax, yes, on income over 70k, yes.

While hundreds of thousands of workers pay zero or very little income tax.

My parents pay 8% - 9% on 50k.

We have a very, very progressive income tax system, I think the most progressive in the world?

Yes, our mortgage rates for new customers are highest, or second-highest in the EU.

(Note that if you have an existing tracker mortgage, your rate is low)

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964746#Comment_117964746

What is your source that Ireland is the 6th best place in the world and what are the criteria? Would that apply to all Irish people in all walks of life or a certain demographic? You don't think it's possible that some people in certain stages of life might more suited to one country than another?

I still haven't heard anyone give evidence that Ireland's childcare situation, which is a huge factor if you have a small family, is actually fine here in compared to mainland Europe. Poor childcare availability/affordability doesn't mean that Ireland is an awful place for everyone, but it's a significant challenge for some people at a certain stage in their life. That has not been acknowledged by those accusing me of being completely unrealistic or that I am moaning that Ireland is an awful place to live. I haven't said that anywhere.

Dublin is a brilliant place to live in you're a young single person on a great salary, maybe working for a tech company. If you can afford rent and health insurance, you are near an airport, there's great nightlife etc etc. We loved living here before we had kids.

I can tell you now that as a young family with children that it has become a much more challenging place to live.

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966958#Comment_117966958

This isn’t hard information information to find 🤷

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking The UN puts us at 2

Good country had us at 3rd last year https://index.goodcountry.org/

Compared to where in Europe? List the countries where you have cheaper and more accessible childcare? Because it’s not many.

And in those countries other costs are higher. Like house prices in Gothenburg where your life stage is irrelevant. Or rural Brittany where you make massive trade offs and earn half or less of Dublin wages.

The fact is you’ve made some pretty big statements around moving to Sweden or France because Ireland is unaffordable when the facts are housing is more expensive in one location and the other is rural so not comparing like with like.

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964894#Comment_117964894

Weird. I could swear I wrote the sentence “we pay LOW or no charges….”

Tell me an equivalent Western Europe or North American location where property tax and water charges aren’t 5x more than Ireland…

property tax in Ireland is a pittance compared to pretty much anywhere else - I paid 5k in US for modest home.

As for lack water charges 🙄🙄🙄

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965929#Comment_117965929

We have highest mortgage rates in Europe as we prevent banks evicted delinquent mortgage payers. Somebody has to pay for that… And banks want to leave Irish market it is so unprofitable - Ulster bank shutting down…

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991071#Comment_117991071

It's not hard to find, yet both sources you provided list different rankings to what you said originally and are limited in their scope. eg. the UN report: "The HDI simplifies and captures only part of what human development entails. It does not reflect on inequalities, poverty, human security, empowerment, etc." I have never disputed that Irish are well educated or that we have good life expectancy. I'm not on Boards long enough to share links but a quick google found different rankings to what you have shared with regards to affordability and quality of life.

The OECD report 2019 put Ireland's public spending per capita on childcare as the lowest in Europe and Sweden at the highest, and there are only 5 other European countries with higher childcare costs than Ireland: UK, Netherlands, Slovenia, Greece and Luxembourg, with Sweden being the third cheapest in Europe. Given your responses on this issue, I can only assume that you are either on such a good salary that you don't notice how expensive childcare is, or that you don't have children in childcare in Ireland. Kindly provide data if you wish to keep asserting that childcare in Ireland is not that expensive.

As I mentioned previously, we have equity from our house and have not specified how much, yet you assume we cannot afford to buy in Gothenburg. Why are you assuming that? Or that moving to rural Brittany means a massive trade off, presumably because you think I actually want to live in a city and not somewhere rural, is it? People are different and like different things Microsoft. Some people would hate to live in the country, others in the city. These kinds of assumptions and this kind of discussion is irrelevant to my original post.

Fysh

AHEM

*clears throat, dons mod hat for a minute*

The "it is/no it isn't" arguments about the specifics of Irish taxes, cost of living and how much better (or otherwise) Ireland is than other states in the EU etc are fast approaching "argument with the pub bore" level.

The OP has been given some useful advice and links so far about sources of information to check and issues to consider ahead of relocating an entire family to a country where English is not the first language. Let's get the thread back on track by focusing on that aspect of the conversation.

One uncontroversial truth about such a move is that "measure twice, cut once" is definitely a good way to avoid pain. Solid advice from either professionals in specific areas like tax or others who have made a recent, clearly comparable move (similar family size, working situation, income & assets etc) will help make an informed decision.

I do think that the importance of the language should not be underestimated, particularly if there's a significant amount of bureaucracy involved.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004049#Comment_118004049

Thank you. I am particularly interested in hearing from people who have made a recent, clearly comparable move and what the experience was like, the learnings etc.

Spiderman0081

I live in Sweden and even if Ireland had no taxes I wouldn’t move back.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015871#Comment_118015871

Thanks Spiderman, tell me more! 😍

buffin

Not exactly what you're looking for but wanted to give a quick bit of input. I work for a large French company but based here in Ireland and our offices here are clearly English speaking - I have about 3 words of Junior Cert French. It's a wonderful company to work for - people are generally very pleasant to deal with (and I work a lot with our French teams) and the working culture is great. People actually take lunch breaks and leave on time, and get a huge amount of holiday days. All our meetings with French teams are in English, but I do think some of the French folks get a little exasperated with that (12 French speakers on a call and me being the only outlier) and sometimes conversation will lapse into French, especially if there's a disagreement. If you're thinking of looking for work in France down the line my experience is very positive! Best of luck with the decision and the move :)

Jim2007

>> People actually take lunch breaks and leave on time, and get a huge amount of holiday days

This is actually normal in most of mainland Europe! Twenty minutes after the end of the working day, the carpark will be empty. And regularly working overtime is considered a negative - it's an indication you or your boss are not up to the job.

sekond

From a really practical point of view, exactly when in the maternity leave are you thinking of going? We moved country (from one where we were both expats, with a small network of friends and I spoke only a little of the language, to my husbands home country, English speaking) when my daughter was 4 months old. It was one of the hardest moves I have ever done in my life. Apart from the usual complications, need to find somewhere to live etc, there was the pure of exhaustion of managing a baby and a toddler, trying to fit them both into the new public health/childcare systems, and knowing absolutely nobody. And that was in a country where my husband knew the lay of the land and we were working in our native language. I'd have bitten your hand off for tickets home (or even back to our expat place) in the first year.

Wherever you end up going, I'd think really hard about the timing.

Fysh

MOD NOTE: Drop the off-topic conversation please, this thread has been derailed enough as it is.

Budawanny

Hi , I lived in Sweden for a few years .

the language is very easy to learn. A lot of the words and sentence structures are very very similar to English. I’m not terribly proficient at languages but this one was straight forward . although I have a strong accent. You could try taking a course on n Ireland and see how it goes. I started off with a course in sandford institute in Dublin before I left , to get a head start.

pros of Sweden.

things work. It’s clean. Tidy. Standard of accommodation is far beyond Ireland.

cons

it was very hard to meet people. Make friends. At least in Stockholm.

I spent time in pubs where other immigrants went to improve my Swedish.

I would say the dark winter aspect is really irrelevant, especially in the south of Sweden . Gothenburg is 1 degree north of Edinburgh for example.

Budawanny

I would also say your plan to move your family is quite feasible given a bit of planning.

I have friends who moved families to the Netherlands and Switzerland very successfully. Not having family support structures is not important , most of Europe doesn’t rely on this .

airportgirl83

What have you decided OP?

mvl

Not sure, did I see "easier to get a job" on the criteria helping decide ? I am following my job options, hence decided for Sweden, even if I don't speak Swedish (yet), but I am certain I'd be fluent (again) in French after couple of weeks of living there.

only saying it cause based on my readings ... ain't that easy to get a job with no swedish ...

Feenix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096267#Comment_118096267

what are you on about?

mvl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100584#Comment_118100584

I beg your pardon ? (maybe you'll pick up what I mean reading below ...)

information on what it takes to move to Sweden as EU can be found on these recent threads https://www.reddit.com/r/TillSverige/comments/pwfpsk/eu_member_moving_to_sweden_do_i_need_personnel/ or https://www.reddit.com/r/TillSverige/comments/q7bh9o/how_much_money_to_be_considered_self_sufficient/

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102784#Comment_118102784

Your original post did not make senses and adding a reference does not improve it.

mvl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103560#Comment_118103560

well, that is cause I didn't mean to improve my original post.

references are for whoever thinks of emigrating to Sweden without knowing some of the rules that apply to EU citizens, or what reddit to look for information about it (imo users from this forum can only provide limited support/info sharing for that particular country, by comparison)

Fysh

@mvl I think you have probably confused matters by replying to airportgirl83 as if you were the OP.

If you are indeed in the process of making a similar move to the one described by the OP, it would be helpful to have you explain your own circumstances and decision making process. If your circumstances are very different to the OP's please start a separate thread - this one has already had a fair bit of drift and the OP has specifically requested input from people who have made similar moves.

Those reddit links may contain useful information, but it is generally better if you can post the actual useful information in-thread with the link as a source. (A pet hate of mine is finding questions like the OP's whete someone has dropped a link that no longer works, because IMO it's worse than not getting an answer at all...)

mvl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103872#Comment_118103872

OK, now I see where the confusion was; I didn't think I replied to airportgirl83, as I didn't include their post in my post... yes, I am looking into a relocation with my family (second time in my life), and same as first time, I am going where I have ties for my job.

One thing I learnt about Sweden from Tillsverige is that Sweden has a PPS equivalent (personnummer) - needed for mortgages, utilities, certain health coverage, even ikea deliveries expect it ... in order to get this personnummer, one needs to be in following categories: 1- employed, 2- looking for employment, 3- studying, 4- self-sufficient or 5- being part of the family that lives/moving to Sweden.

// my observation based on what I read from OP is that 1,3,5 won't apply, 2 needs swedish (or even personnummer at times), or skills/experience where swedish is not required (e.g. IT) while for 4, must be checked, there would be a specific amount needed for a year for a family.

Actually I am looking at rental places now (from this point of view, situation is not pretty); first hand rentals usually ask for a permanent job, no payment remarks, or rent to be a percentage of income. but yeah, there is always airbnb for shorter term.

Fysh

Thanks mvl, that's really helpful 🙂 good luck with the search!

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104158#Comment_118104158

Thanks for the clarification.

The requirements for Sweden are the same as for all EU/EEA/CH states. The FMOP rules are:

You can move to a state to seek employment for up to 3 months, you may at the discretion of the state remain for a further 3 months. If you fail to find economically viable employment within that period, the state is entitled to require you to leave.
Assuming you find employment, you are entitled to a residents/work permit for a period of 5 years. After that you are entitled to permanent resident status, provided you have established an economically viable way of life and meet the other requirements such as language etc...
You are entitled to establish a business in an EU/EEA/CH state and entitled to receive the required permits provided it is a viable business and VERY IMPORTANT it relates to the economy of that state. And again after five years you are entitled to permanent resident status, provided your business is economically viable.
You are entitled to move to another state for the purposes of family reunification
You may retire to another state provided you have sufficient means not to become a burden of that state. The state paying the major portion of your pension remains responsible for your healthcare and social services.

And that is it. There is no right to work remotely, live of independent means such as royalties, investment income etc... Of course those things are possible, but there is no right to do so. And in most cases states are not too concerned about what EU citizens get up to so long as they are law abiding and are not a burden on the state.