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What is Poland up to?

MrMusician18

It looks to me that their government do not want to remain as an EU member state and may also be heading for the door by engineering a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution

Would Poland leaving be worse for the bloc than Brexit?

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JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001935#Comment_118001935

The problem is that Polish people don't have real democratic choice. Only 30% support populists and even they are manipulated into believing them. During last 6 years populists got everything: public TV is their propaganda tube, they also bought out local newspapers. (Everything what Morawiecki said few days ego in EU Parlament was for Polish TV to show, how proud nation we are. Of course they didn't show all others reactions. That's how they propaganda works.)

Our Constitution is in accordance with EU. It was checked by our Tribunal before signing the EU treaty. But the problem is that current constitutional tribunal says everything what ruling party wants because is dependent, it is appointed by them. The only independent part is the remains of our judicial system, which has to be defended at all cost, if democracy in Poland is to win eventually. If this is lost, so it won't be any real elections in future. Because pupulists' High Court will accept any foully chosen people.

Our last presidential election was already cheated because of this TV propaganda.

Populist want to stay in power at all costs.

Imagine, if courts in USA were dependent on Trump, so after his lost election, the court would rule in his favour and he would stay the president (while in reality he lost few times the cases in courts). That's what they want to do. They want to have dependent Courts to rule in their favour because in honest way they would not be able to win in future.

We simply were young democracy and didn't have all checks in place to protect us from these populist damaging my country at the moment. The only hope is actually in Europe to restore democracy in Poland and help majority of Poles.

ancapailldorcha

The only hope is actually in Europe to restore democracy in Poland and help majority of Poles.

How? Do you want the EU to assume more power than it already has? Do you want a series of European referenda? I think this is the worst thing the EU could do now with things the way they are.

Sam Russell

What the EU expects to do, and is already on track to do, is to punish Poland, a net recipient, with financial penalties. Already, the ECJ has imposed a fine of €500 m a day, and now another one at €1 million a day. If these are not paid, they will be increased, and will be deducted from EU subventions.

If the Polish people want to stay in the EU and get the benefits, they need to get their Gov to modify their behaviour to comply with the ECJ.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084376#Comment_118084376

No, just don't feed these parasites. They already defrauded a lot of tax payers money, so don't give them any more money till they start obeying law. All these money will be taken by them to stay in power. Polish people won't see them.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084940#Comment_118084940

The problem is that with public TV in their hands and local media, as well as church, they managed to brain washed a lot of people, so they don't see their wrongdoing.

Polish election is always on Sundays, so simple people in rural areas (their main voters) just go to church, are told by priests how to vote, so they then vote. But is it their real choice? And then populists has to pay back the favour made by church, so they introduce strict abortion law or anty LGBT acts. It is just cynical business made between church and government and common people just pay for it. It is really very sad.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085188#Comment_118085188

Sounds like Ireland in the 1930s until the 1950s.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085123#Comment_118085123

But this was entirely my question. PiS and Fidesz have rigged the system so there's no fixing it from without and they're not going to undo what they've done. The only solution I see is to weaponise the EU's budget, ie make the subsidies conditional upon reform at the next budget.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085766#Comment_118085766

Situation in Hungary is different because Orban had constitutional majority, so they changed constitution to fit them. Therefore they are obeying law. While in Poland they are breaking law, they are breaking our constitution and they have no right to do so.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083181#Comment_118083181

Given it is legally determined, it is a right. My son has lived here since he was 2. Unfortunately for him, he wasn't given a choice in the matter.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083207#Comment_118083207

I mentioned the dysfunctional process as I belive it relevant to the incredible sitution Poles living in Ireland would face if Poland were to be ejected from the EU. I think that the eligibility rules for residency and citizenship would need to change, as woud the processing proficiency of the civil service.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085310#Comment_118085310

1980s. Churchgoers were openly told what way to vote in the divorce and abortion referendums.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089462#Comment_118089462

That is true, but not nearly as effectively as they were directed in the 1930s to 1950s. Back then, there were Industrial Schools where poor children were imprisoned and abused, and Magdalen Laundries where young ladies, expecting a baby outside marriage, were imprisoned and abused while expecting, and kept a while after as slave labour, while their babies were sold off to wealthy Catholic Americans. Both cases had wide support in the population as well as support from the clergy. These both have led to State pay outs in restitution to those adversely affected. The Church has not yet paid out the full restitution they were supposed to for whatever reason.

By the 1980s, the influence of the pulpit thumpers was much reduced, but still potent enough to influence to outcome of both those referendums.

Both referendums have been reversed since.

Chris_Heilong

The EU should just respect each country that is a part of the union and not encourage countries to follow someone else's vision if it is not in the best interest of that country.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115959#Comment_118115959

Copenhagen Criteria are binding.

Economics101

The Polish fence-building on the border with Belarus is in response to the tyrant Lukashenko trying to use desperate Iraquis (and Afghans) as some sort of pressure by herding them across the border in order to have sanctions revoked following the illegal diversion of the Ryanair flight into Vilnius. I think the Lithuanians and Latvians may be soing some fence-building for similar reasons. Nothing much to do with being anti-immigrant in the usual sense.

Basically Poles are strongly pro-EU, and if PiS keep this lark up, that will get shafted by the electorate. The EU should do nothing wich would alienate ordinary and, at present, well-disposed Poles.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085188#Comment_118085188

Sounds like Ireland a few decades ago. 🙄 Ireland was a democracy of simple rural people ruled by Rome right into my adulthood when the church began to lose its iron grip. Amazing how the vacuum of communism has been taken by other authoritarian forces. Vacuums left by authoritarian forces get filled dangerously by alternatives in emerging democracies.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Off topic posts and response removed.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119971#Comment_118119971

You seem don't understand Polish situation. It is in this order everywhere in UE: country's constitution is the most important, then UE law and then parliament's acts, which are the lowest.

Before signing a treaty it is checked with constitution of each country, so the access treaty is in agreement with it. But in Poland parliament is introducing simple acts (because they don't have constitutional majority, only simple majority) to change our judiciary system, which are not in agreement with polish constitution. They are then sent to Constitutional Tribunal, which is dependant on ruling party at the moment and this body affirms that it is in accordance with our constitution, while in fact the are not and they are breaking our Constitution (and BTW European law as well). In Poland we are powerless with ruling party's unlawful actions, while EU can still fight it.

Did you smash it

I’m an Irishman in Poland. The level of incompetence, power grabbing and corruption of the PiS government is dumbfounding. The opposition must be truly useless to be capable of losing to these characters.

if you’re in Ireland, feel grateful for having a government that you don’t really need to worry about

Hotblack Desiato

Doesn't help that there's a large demographic of anti-PiS voters who don't live in Poland any more. I don't know if they can vote from abroad but countries which do have this have a low turnout from ex-pats.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120943#Comment_118120943

It was huge turnout. But last time it was Covid restriction, so we could only vote by post, so I don't trust results

duffysfarm

I have been in Poland many times and can see how it develops and improves each time i go back. However to me it looks like Poland is take, take take when it comes to getting EU funding but when it comes to complying with any rules and regulations that dont suit its like feck off and dont annoy me, who are you to tell me what to do

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121724#Comment_118121724

Unfortunately majority of Poles feel the same with our government. They were chosen by only around 20% of people. They suck all public money and they say to general public (80% of others) feck off, while taking all your tax money and making debts for years to come

duffysfarm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122990#Comment_118122990

I didnt know people in poland cared so much about the suppoert for the irish government?

To say the government is elected by 20% of public may be factually true but the government was voted in by the majority of voters and thats the way democracy works in Ireland.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122990#Comment_118122990

I don't know anything about the Polish electoral system. How the hell did they get a majority with 20% of the vote? Or are you saying that they got a higher polling figure with a low overall turnout?

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123160#Comment_118123160

I was saying about Polish government.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123185#Comment_118123185

It is counted using D'Hondt's method. At the end, if you are an election winner, you got much more mandates, then you would deserve, if counted proportionally. It is to make it easier for a winner to rule without a need for making coalitions. And it rewards big parties, which creates the coalitions before elections and start from a one list.

For example PiS got 43,6% of votes but as a winner got 51,1% of mandates in 2019. 61.74% of Poles voted, who had a right to vote (18.700 man people voted). 37.970 mln Poles lived in Poland in 2019. So 8.052 mln Poles voted for PiS, so 21% of all Poles. But 26,7% of those, who had right to vote.

So I gave wrong number. 26,7% voted for a winning party PiS.

listermint

A particularly rational tweet from Polish constitutional judge Krystyna Pawlowicz

Where does one start to deconstruct this ...

https://twitter.com/BDStanley/status/1458017989551349762

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141574#Comment_118141574

Wow. There's a lot going on there - none of it good.

cnocbui

She sounds like a graduate of the legal faculty of Donald Trump university, where a miraculous degree can be had in 6 months. Seriously, this is a 'judge'?

'I think it's a judge, Jim, but not as we know them.'