best players at the time.
Now...
POM, Murray, Earls et al.
Naaah.
So make it as simplistic as you want, its not true and distorts everything we do.
At this rate the whole team will have to be on central deals. Sheehan looks as good as kelleher. Doris and COombes etc. Again if we want to go back to the old days and have more deals, fine. but it doesn't work with 11 ringfenced players. they have to be head and shoulders above the others. Only Furlong fits that now, at this stage. And guys like POM were never head and shoulders above anybody.
Outhalf is a great example of what we are facing. we have loads of options coming on board. Two at Munster, which will most likely force Carbery to make a decision. Lowry will move to outhalf. none are as good as Sexton. however we are in probably the 4th cycle of pro rugby in IReland. it makes sense that the disparities of individual talent are petering out. mostly now the players are all pretty solid on basics. strength, fitness, core skills. so who you give deals to is far more complex than the old days. and by oild days i mean pre 2015.
Best players in their position offered central contracts and play in test games shocker!!!!!
and when was the last time they were dropped from the squad?maybe Toner? Healy had huge injury issues.
A central contract mostly protects your squad status. its not a conspiracy. its just logical. why would they pump money into the few players and not have them involved. personally i think its a stupid system that doesn't reflect form. if it was 20-30 odd players yeah fine. but a rolling number of about 11 etc with all the status and sponsorship profile that brings, nah not for me. look at Stockdale on the outside now. yeah his initial burst onto the scene demanded central contract status, by why now? sport is way too fluid for thsi shite, and the system is archaic. move it off an official list, keep it in house or just top up provinces with extra money. its all the same budgets (in practical terms), its just an illusion that it isn't.
I mean Keenan has been great. but if you give him a central contract and don't give Larmour one. what does that do for anybody? ditto say Kelleher or Doris, when their rivals are basically their equals.
i think we will move away from it now. we are producing far too many good rugby players. atm we ahve a system where we have high profile central contracts not deserving of their spots, even argubally in the squad. like 400k-500k more than their in form equivalents. thats just nuts in sport. terrible in a team environment where most players are now equals. theres a reason the Liverpool players won't mind if Salah gets 500k a week. cause he's the best in the World. That also may have been true for Drico and POC, ROG, O'Brien back in the day but now? only a peak Sexton could fit that mould. Furlong due to his position and ability. now its way too even. Again if the IRFU want to expand it again like the old days, yeah maybe it works.
UAEGuy seems to think people agree with him “deep down” when they don’t. I don’t think we need to entertain their delusion any longer.
All of that has resulted in improved performances for them (even if the tournament wins haven't quite come yet).
But all of that was off the back of unprecedented failure which UAEguy seems to want to overlook. If they win next years 6 Nations, it'll be their first win since 2010, a 12 year wait. Previously, they had never gone more than 4 years without a win, dating all the way back to their first (shared) title in 1959.
I'd like to see us play like we're favourites against New Zealand and impose some sort of a game on them. Even if it means a 50-point drubbing I want Ireland to go out believing they can and will win every game.
I'd like Harry Byrne to stay fit and play a stormer against Japan, prompting a serious discussion on whether he's ready for the big time.
I'd like a real balance in the back row, whatever the personnel. That said, I think Coombes needs to be involved as much as possible as we have been crying out for a carrier of his heft and calibre for some time.
I'd like for the referee not to be mentioned apart from to say he/she did a good job.
I'd like to see us not box kick possession away on turnover ball in mid field.
From a players perspective I'd like to see frawley get a run at 12 with ringrose at 13 and id like to see a few passing phases and not just 5 phases and kick..
That WAS their problem until 2019 when they took decisive measures - tightening the JIFF rules, hiring a manager with a vision and courage after a string of milquetoast yes-men, jettisoning everyone over a certain age and using tournaments like the Covid cup and the Australia tour to blood as many young, promising players as possible. We've yet to see any concrete results in terms of silverware but in two years they've built a huge squad with great depth in nearly all positions. Which of course is normal given the resources available to them.
I'd like to see;
Unless they go down on matchday someone else will be brought in to play 10.
As to what I want to see. Anything except constant pick + drives once we get into the 22.
I agree with you on the subject of attacking strategy. There simply has to be improvement there. We've a lot of individually talented backs who don't seem to be playing as a unit.
Bringing Frawley into the team at 12 could be signalling a change in approach. For as good as Henshaw and Ringrose are, neither can say that distribution is their primary skill. Frawley has rapidly become very important to Leinsters attack in recent weeks. He hasn't been trying anything outrageous either. Just drawing a man in midfield before passing go a player in space. It's helped us improve our wide attack quite a bit.
I've been quite impressed by the job Farrell has done with the pack. He has integrated a new generation of young forwards into the side and is bringing in more. I think we're a match for any side in the 6 Nations when it comes to quality up front. Some have bigger athletes, but we're very well drilled in open play and at the set piece. We now need to see some innovation from Catt when it comes to actually getting points on the board. For much of the last two years the good work from the forwards has gone unrewarded.
That’s the point, they had scant little options at 10 (They were playing Bauxis in the 2018 Six Nations for crying out loud) and even Lopez isn’t that good either, most French fans I know don’t rate him at all. The point is they had to take a chance, but in doing so they were throwing in Jalibert who had 15 career appearances for Bordeaux Begles straight into their starting XV versus Ireland in 2018, I’d imagine if he was at Munster or Leinster he wouldn’t have even broken the double digits for appearances at the point yet here he was. Ntamack in 2019 wasnt starting at 10 in any big games for Toulouse, playing either 12 or on the bench behind Zack Holmes.
the point is in these circumstances do you think we have given any of these same players the time of day? Not a prayer. I’d get you’re point if Jalibert and Ntamack were atleast somewhat experienced at even Top 14 level but France backed them in ways we could only dream of doing. I’m just getting sick of the constant moaning and excuses about the situation at 10 yet there seems to be very little really being done about it, the way we have given game time to other 10s so far is the equivalent of doing homework for class in the hallway 30 mins before the class starts, yes it’s got done but in the end are we really doing anything about the overall picture? Our young 10s need a run in the team (for example what France did with Ntamack) and allowed the opportunity to fail or succeed as best case scenario he is a perfect replacement and worse case scenario he learns a valuable lesson at this level (no 10 I would write off until they have had multiple consistent goes in the shirt). If our 10s aren’t starting they need to be given proper game time off the bench. If none of this is done then fine but I don’t want to hear anyone bitching and moaning about our situation at 10, it’s a by product of us not being prepared and showing we have learnt nothing from previous RWC failures that we look doomed to repeat.
Technically, I think the box kick came in the middle of about 18 phases? ;)
It got us entry into their 22 down to Keenan’s brilliant take, but we saw decent variety both sides of the kick, iirc.
The try that started with a box kick? 😂
Their aim in this expperiment was to get afew quality 10s into their team, as a result they now have 2. That’s looks like getting it right to me unless I’m missing something. The fact you like many must deflect from this and talk about France as a whole shows deep down you totally agree with me but don’t want to admit it.
It's been interesting to se how Leinster are using Kelleher as a carrier, I'd like to see the ball getting to him out wide, it would also be great to see Keenan add more to his Ireland performances by joining the line at 12 or 13. More creativity among the backs would be welcome but box kicking is a limited tactic as this stage, particularly as Murray's accuracy has not been top drawer for a couple of seasons. I thought JPG brought great pace to ruck recycling against Japan but that doesn't create much if the receivers are static and predictably carry into contact, some variation to keep defenses guessing would be welcome and there was some evidence of that against Japan. As above it will be interesting to see how well Frawley adapts to test rugby, he has great footwork and a nice pass.
Have you noticed Frawleys injury record?
Frawley was moved to 12 because he wasn’t going to get past the other 3 10’s. He doesn’t have the game management aspect of a top level 10.
Just personnel-wise, I’d like to see:
If we can continue the variety in attack that we saw for the Jack Conan try against England, I’d be pretty happy to with that too.
As someone pointed out a couple of days ago the three 10s on the panel for November are all A&E candidates every time they cross the white line. I could see a situation where two of them go down and Frawley gets looked at. Even BOD mentioned him as a possible 10.
Last season, any calls for him to be starting 10 would’ve had him ahead of JJ tho. Part of that picture is that Carbery returned in March. I don’t think anyone expected Carbery to be as off the pace as he’s been.
I think all of Doussain, Plisson, Trinch-Duc, Tales and Beauxis have had starts in the last 5 years or so. The French approach seemed entirely scattergun with their half backs for a fair while.
People who saw Healy last season were advocating that a) he should be the starting ten for a Munster, and b) in time he could be in the green jersey. The first has to happen before the second is a serious option.
“…the fact is France's record and the risk France took at 10 aren't intertwined”.
If you want to believe France’s decade of underachievement, when their highest 6 Nations finish was 3rd, has nothing to do with them backing a young 10 then….
Y’know what, nevermind.
In an effort to move the conversation on, half backs aside what are people looking for from this series? What would deem it a success?
For me I’d like to see some progress in our attacking game. We have been looking to put more width on things under Farrell and play more. But I’m not sure we’ve figured out where to play what players in order to make that happen. I’m assuming we want more ball players in the back line. Guys who can step in at first and/or second receiver as much as possible. We’d have to have some variety there. But who is being asked to do that? Are they (m)any outside of Sexton who can?
Are there other elements of our game that people want to see kick on a bit, change or whatever? How important are the results to people? What if the performances are rubbish but we are showing signs of developing our game in a positive direction?
Ok they gave Ntamack and Jallibert a shot. Who were the other more experienced 10s available? What other options did they have? Apart from Lopez.
No one was talking about Healy in the Ireland context until Munster demolished an absolutely abject Scarlets a few weeks ago. They all looked like superstars because the opposition were a million miles from test level.
We have the right three OHs in the squad IMO.
France don't back anyone at 10, that is their problem. They have been chopping and changing their halfbacks for a decade to the point where throwing in Ntamack and Jalibert was just yet another step in their mania. And that is why they have more wooden spoons than 6N championships in the last decade.
He’s deliberately trying to move the goalposts throughout. We’re all wasting our time. Stick him on ignore and let him talk to nobody at all. We’ll all be better for it.
Stop trying to use France as a whole to sidetrack the discussion but you keep referring to France and how they have got it right with their policies?
What disaster? They have two young 10s who look naturals at this level, it helps when you are actually backed at 10 rather than lynched every time you make a mistake like what happens in this country. Stop trying to use France as a whole to try sidetrack from the actual main point of the discussion.
