No player is complete at 22, the point here is he has good attributes and is possibly the most mentally strong 10 we have produced since Sexton, its the sort of temperament we need at 10 badly. The main point is afford him the game time required in order to help him get to the point of being a complete player.
They should if we feel the need to do so, it's a case by case basis. The point is call up Joey,Ben and/or Harry and see how they run things at training and if they do so successfully give them a go to see if they can handle test level, Argentina and Japan are the perfect games for this situation. You know if France were in the same predicament this is what they would do, they already did so with Jalibert and Ntamack (the latter didnt even play a big game for Toulouse at 10 before being France's starting 10...) Because France could see these players had potential and they themselves were really struggling at 10 so took a calculated risk that ended up having high reward. The difference is we've seen enough of Ben and Harry for their provinces to know that they have the potential to step up, this is the point where excuses need to stop and we need to start trying to repair the problem.
That I agree with, the game versus Japan and Argentina is a game for the back ups to impress. Its our own fault for not having the top level 10s as we pretty much ruined both Ross Byrne and Joey Carbery with how we handled their development. All I know is anyone with two eyes and a brain can see that Harry and Ben have what it takes to make it at international level, they just need consistent game time at 10 to add the consistency to their game to help reach their potential, Argentina and Japan are the games to try them out if they are impressing in training, games like the US and arguably Italy is no better than a Champions Cup match imo, to see if they can make the next step Argentina and Japan are the perfect games as we should be good enough at home regardless but potentially if the two excel we might even learn about how good they can be at this level.
He didnt look at a bunch of other 10s because the game time any of them was given is not sufficient enough for a 10 to grow into the jersey, if anything all it will do is make matters worse because not only has the problem NOT been fixed but the players confidence has been damaged. He can by backing one of them, he doesn't do that and as a result the player hasn't improved, its pretty self explanatory tbh. This is where balls is required, he needs to take risks to solve the problem if the problem cant be fixed within reason, simply persisting with Sexton and not fixing the problem isn't good enough at this level. Playing games will change that because these players can get better and more comfortable in the basics of the game like passing, kicking etc, whereas by giving them no time to grow into the jersey they will just **** the bed in these moments and make bad decisions, but with experience they can at the very least work these problems out of their game.
Also you dont know if it will lead us to no reward because nothing has been done. We will only know if there is no reward if the player has gotten sufficient game time at 10 and hasnt improved, so far none of them have so as a result we have no idea what will happen.
The biggest issue is we seem to have no plan for if he's unavailable, either A. Give another 10 some proper minutes in the jersey or B. Alter the gameplan so we arent as reliant on him being fit. It seems the plan is persist with him until he retires and just throw the towel in if he's out. That's tier 2 level of planning for the future and deservedly will end in failure.
Dublin Bus management don’t have the balls to let you try, molloy. Gutless cowards.
I hate this take. Players shouldn’t be getting Test caps so that you or I can tell if they are good enough. Farrell should already all but know the answer to that himself before handing out any caps. If he doesn’t then he’s not doing his job right.
I mean you don’t know if I’d be any good at driving a bus or not. But we don’t find out by putting me behind the wheel of a full Dublin Bus at rush hour and saying “go for it there and we’ll see if you can do it or not”. Because that would be really stupid.
If I was Farrell I would only play Sexton v the all blacks. The opportunity to view the back ups is right there v Japan and the pumas.
I think Burns has been the best of the back ups thus far, so I would give him the nod. Maybe even have Sexton on the bench!
So far, Carberry and RB have been poor. I don't think they deserve a call up. That would leave Carty, who hasn't been that good either.
We just have the top level 10's. I would be shocked if Healy or HB are included this autumn. Although, I think Healy has been better than Carberry, he has to take the 10 shirt from Carberry at Munster. The same with HB. He must pass RB at the very least.
That's the point when you say "I dont think", noone actually knows for definite and noone will until he's thrown in. If he has assets that we could do with then its worth the risk.
Didn't see that question. All I said was I would pick 2 alternatives (for me at the moment it would be Joey Carbery & Ben Healy) and see who's better in the system. I meant in that particular game. One question I have is how come we highlight these factors in all our other 10s but we never hold Sexton to the same standards when ever he drops off, he just comes back and looks good against Zebre and all is forgiven. The only reason it looked neck and neck was down to experience rather than ability of running a game, Healy only had a handful of caps compared to JJ who had a hell of alot more experience. The point isnt who's better than Sexton now, its about who can step up in the future, at the moment the plan should be give an alternative game time so they have a chance of potentially blossoming in time, no 10 is going to improve and attempt to match Sexton by sitting on the sidelines. No matter the situation there is no time to not be brave, there are probably only 2 positions where we need to be brave if we want to fix a problem, one is our depth at loosened but that's being managed for the time being thanks to Porter switching over and him being 26, the other is the 10 shirt and we just need to find every opportunity possible to squeeze in as much game time for our young 10s, for example give Joey and/or Carbery a start versus Japan and Argentine, give them both 10-15 mins off the bench in big 6N matches (versus England, France, Wales etc), give them a start versus Italy and possibly Scotland. That's whats going to help improve a 10, simply chopping and changing every game and giving them only 5 minutes off the bench every game wont improve any of them.
I think maybe I should probably say what I think should happen rather than try and address any specific points. We may find we’re closer to one another’s opinion than we thought. Before I do, I’m not wedded to this specifically. A variation on the theme would be totally fine. But it gives a good sense of where my head is at with this stuff.
Sexton is our first choice 10. For big games he starts until there is at least a comparable option. And right now there isn’t. Obviously Sextons age and injury profile means that we need at least 1 reliable back up. So….
Carbery has been the heir apparent for a few years. We’ve invested a good deal of time in him and we know he can do a job at Test level. I’m not convinced he’s much more than that, and his form right now is poor, but I think he needs to be in the frame as his form can turn around and we aren’t blessed with options.
Burns is our best performing 10 right now other than Sexton. He has his limitations and is playing in a side that plays through 9 more than 10, which may not be the case with Ireland. But given that he is playing fairly well at the moment and has proven week to week consistency he too should be in the frame.
Carty for me shouldn’t be in the frame. He has shown no ability to find that week to week consistency to the point that you simply don’t know what you’re going to get from him from match to match.
Behind our starters at provincial level we have Ross Byrne, Ian Madigan, Conor Fitzgerald and Ben Healy. The first three aren’t in the picture at all, nor should they be (Mads is injured anyway). Ben Healy had a good game vs a very weak Scarlets. But he also was being tipped for big things 12 months ago before that all died down as the season progressed. He has a lot more to do to be a real option. But then, we are stuck so maybe he’s worth a look now.
Behind those guys there is really only Harry Byrne. He’s been in Ireland camp a good bit under Farrell and got capped during the summer. But similar to Healy, Harry Byrne probably still has more to do given his injuries etc. We have invested time in him to date though so he’s worth sticking with if available.
That means Sexton, Carbery, Burns, Harry Byrne and Ben Healy could all be considered live options. Given no league games in the AI window I’d see no issue getting all 5 into camp. Then it’s a case of who plays and when.
We’ll want to have a crack off NZ. There’s no point in that game otherwise. So that probably means a strong team vs Japan. Probably Sexton and Carbery involved there. Maybe start Joey and give him 60 mins. For NZ then it’s going to have to be Sexton to start and probably Joey on the bench. Although Burns on the bench would be very much worth it depending on how Joey does vs Japan. Against Argentina I’d look at Burns to start with Harry Byrne on the bench.
That’s a good look at 3 options (other than Sexton) with Ben Healy getting valuable time in camp as well (similar to Harry Byrne previously). Across 3 games that’s a decent effort, with Carbery and Burns both getting a start each. When you consider the 2 games over the summer as well that’s a decent bit of game time to the back ups over 5 games.
so WHO do you pin your preparations on?
I'm not arguing he needs to play them to make them better players (though it would likely help). I'm arguing that regardless of their ability, one or more of them will play in the next world cup so we should be preparing them accordingly. Not doing so is sticking your head in the sand as much as pretending they're great players.
I'd like to see Healy called up. He has all the physical attributes as well as a monstrous boot. He might not be a complete player, at least yet, but he's worth taking a chance on.
Have the Autumn series tickets gone on sale yet or have i just totally missed the boat?
I think duncan weir is more of a target as to what Lowry could be as he develops physically
Farrell has looked at a bunch of other 10s, including fast tracking Harry Byrne despite a very badly disrupted season where he probably didn’t really earn the opportunity he was given in the summer.
He can’t magically make any of these players better than they are. He doesn’t get to spend enough time with them to do so. He’s doing what he can with very limited options. He has to balance the short term with the long term.
We may argue that he could have given a bit more time to certain players at certain times, but there really isn’t much in it and I don’t know if it would really have made any difference anyway. He’s getting a good look at these guys in training too which we aren’t seeing. If he wasn’t bringing them into camp and/or wasn’t giving them any game time then maybe we could cry foul. But he is working to find a replacement. There just isn’t one there right now. Playing guys who aren’t good enough in games now won’t change that. And it’ll just lead to pain now for no reward.
Is he that much smaller than Damien McKenzie?
I don't think Healy is the immediate answer, but if you were 2 points down with 10 mins to go, his range would be a huge asset from the bench.
I say, if he gets more time there with Ulster, give him a go. If your fears prove correct (and I understand them), fair enough. I understand he was playing 10 and 15 in training with the Ireland squad durjng the summer. He's small, but brave, and unlike a number of our tens, has a good tackling technique. If he simply is too small, so be it, but give him the chance to prove otherwise.
This approach leads us to the exact same failures of previous world cups. Going into important games with 10s who have barely played for Ireland. Its so short-sighted.
If he was about a foot taller and about 10kg heavier maybe.
Lowry is unfortunately just far too small. He'd get smashed in the tackle at test level and he'd be a turnstile in defence.
I asked a direct question of who you'd back and you avoided it. You say that Healy doesnt take a step back and gave his rib break as an example. We have different memories as my memory is that his form fell off after that last year and he seemed a lot more hesitant in defence.
It wasn't clear that Healy was the better 10. It was neck and neck and then Healy broke his ribs and went backwards, and JJ played well against Clermont and kept his place. And we havent stifled anyone, we are currently discussing 7 players for one position, these 7 players get regular game time across only 4 teams, one of these players is a clear head and shoulders above the others and so gets the majority of the time in green.
Its a tough position to fill. Whoever takes over from Sexton will be a worse player. We will suffer if we drop sexton now and just play another player for the sake of it. Its easy to use France as an example of what happens but France were awful for years before they finally made the brave decision.
just for pig iron i did a little research this morning.
since andy farrell took over ireland have played 16 games... totalling 1280 minutes.
Johnny Sexton has played 857 of those minutes, and someone else has played 423 minutes.
so exactly 33% of available time has been given to "not johnny sexton" since Farrell took over.
maybe thats not enough time for some people, but personally i think thats loads of minutes for looking at other 10s to see what they can do at test level.
The fact they havent been able to claim that jersey over a 36 year old sexton says more about the players than anything to do with the coaches.
Lads, there's no point...
"grow a pair of balls"
"a team of losers (aka us)"
"pants pulled down in the end."
"and the Irish coaches balls have dropped"
"gutless and quite frankly cowardice"
"be brave or be soft"
"show some balls"
"proven me right"
"the media sucking Sextons cock"
"you’re a c*nt "
"another team with a pair of balls"
I'd like to see Michael Lowry be given a run for Ireland at out-half at some stage.
He has the best feet of any of the options, just electric whenever he gets on the ball, something about him makes me think he would even be better at the higher intensity level of test rugby.
Do people think that Andy Farrell is unaware of Sexton's age and injury profile?
No one would be happier for an alternative option to emerge at out-half but there just isn't one. You can give Ross Byrne or Jack Carty all the minutes in green you want, it won't make them good enough. They are deeply average players. I'd like to see a bit more of Burns but for now he's in that category too.
Carbery remains the only game in town. He's been pretty poor and a turnstile in defence but there's something there to work with at least.
Healy should not be in this conversation at all (yet). One game against a terrible Scarlets is no basis for anything. If putting rubbish Pro14 teams to the sword was a measure of anything, then Ross Byrne would have been the Lions out-half this summer.
The point is we won’t know if a player is up to par for test level until they get a consecutive run in the shirt
On a fundamental level this is just so incredibly incorrect and where your view falls down spectacularly.
Ireland won’t be in a good way once sexton goes. I suspect we have a potential few rough seasons until an at least decent 10 comes along. This can happen unexpectedly at times though!
We get it. So can this please stop now? We don’t need another several pages of the same thing.
I pity the player that's picked to stand in for Sexton, the analysis on his performance will be over kill just to prove the coach was wrong to pick him while leaving player X out.
The one thing most posters will agree on is we're in a tough spot when Sexton is not available and unfortunately time waits for no man so we're getting to the point where he will be permanently unavailable for selection.
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