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Why no citizenship test?

Pixel Eater

So I know a few people who got/are in the process of applying for Irish citizenship. That's fine but after chatting to them it soon became apparent that they knew very little (practically nothing in one case) about Ireland. I mean basic stuff; like how many counties there is, who's the current Taoiseach, stuff like that.

So I was wondering what's the rationale of not having a citizenship test? We're a complete outlier in this, especially in a European context; there's not even some sort of language test. Would seem like a pretty obvious thing to have.

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Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993849#Comment_117993849

None of the fosters integration, just the usually bla... bra... Integration is a two way process, so you want to start down that road explain how will force Irish people to be part of that so called integration.....

[Deleted User]

A friend is applying for citizenship in Finland. She must pass a language test to get and has failed twice. Satisfied all other criteria and will try the test again in 6 months.

Regardless of a citizenship test. Being able to speak English should be mandatory.

lossless

Easy come, easy go.

Were a company to employ random people that simply show up for an interview, knowing nothing about the company, not fitting any role, perhaps not even speaking the necessary language, well, that company has some bloody bright future ahead of it.

Ridiculous scam of a leadership on this sinking ship, the blatant mismanagement and corruption is immeasurable and the price, for there will be a price, will turn this hole upside down. We'll see who's who when the social and financial bill comes around.

[Deleted User]

Citizenship tests are nonsense.

We've all done tests and then forgotten/ignored what was in said test.

lossless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997950#Comment_117997950

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I believe people in this country have been brainwashed by the incessant, one-sided messaging that has been bleated forth for year after year through every available medium. So analogy circumvents the programming.

A company has a management that employs people without interview, maybe not even a c.v., and this makes sense...how, exactly?

What kind of reasoning could be put forth to explain such idiocy? A single answer, that's what; ulterior motive.

They clearly don't give a flying shyte about the health of the company when they won't (and bear in mind this is an active choice) even do the bare basics.

A citizenship test is the equivalent of wheels on a car. That is to say, one part of a much bigger system. But it is exemplary of the spite and contempt management have for their workers.

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997889#Comment_117997889

It would probably just be a basic test so doubtful that they would have more knowledge of native born people. And if they did possess more knowledge of the nation, then fair play to them.

I'm sure most would, therefore would have nothing to worry about in a test - but some wouldn't. Seems like a fairly basic requirement to me.

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997914#Comment_117997914

Having the ability to speak the language of the country you're living in is pretty vital; virtually impossible to have any integration without it.

Why would Irish people be forced to integrate? Irish people are the society, they are integrated already.

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997950#Comment_117997950

If they are such nonsense then why does most developed countries have them?

lossless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998244#Comment_117998244

There is one singular reason. This countrys main profit producer is property.

The easiest way to increase profit is to increase scarcity.

The easiest way to increase scarcity is to increase population.

The easiest way to increase population is let every arsehole, be they Norwegian or Nigerian, waltz on in.

All barriers to the movement of people into the country must be watered down or eliminated.

When some of the recent years of net migration into the country have been 100% outside the EU, (not an exaggeration, check CSO) it even circumvents the EU policies.

That is why there is no citizenship test. That is why it's easier here than elsewhere. That is why the population is growing rapidly. That is why the housing crisis exists.

It's not the proverbial rocket science. It's a pure and utter scam.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997926#Comment_117997926

100% agree. Language needs to be a mandatory component of citizenship.

Having said that, I have sympathy for your friend. Finnish is a notoriously difficult language to master.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998220#Comment_117998220

Irish people are going to be forced to integrate - they are not the diverse, cosmopolitan society that is aimed for. They will need to assimilate to the new reality just as much as the "New Irish" will. The end result is not a grim monocultural Ireland filled with Irish people doing Irish things like it was in the 1950s - it is a new Ireland, with a new Irish, just like they have the in UK. The legacy Irish can of course be grandfathered into this utopia as a courtesy, but they must assimilate to the new reality. Any failure of the utopia will of course be due to the legacy Irish selfishly failing to assimilate.

On current trends the ethnic Irish will be a minority within their own homelands. Already, just 77% of babies born in 2020 had Irish nationals as mothers. Irish nationals is a pretty broad category - the share of babies born to ethnic Irish mothers would be even less. Irelands fertility level has dropped to 1.6, well below replacement levels meaning a fall in population. But the Irish government is planning for the population to increase by hundreds of thousands over the next two to three decades. This will be fuelled by mass migration by non-Irish into Ireland. How else can the construction industry be expected to make a profit throwing up housing estates a 3 hour commute from work? This is the new normal and why citizenship tests based on Irish history or Irish culture are increasingly irrelevant.

In the future, European countries will be more akin to Premier League football teams than old style nation states. People will be recruited to Team Ireland from around the world. Team Ireland will be defined by whoever is wearing a green jersey for GDP purposes, unless and until they pull on the jersey of a different country/economic zone. Citizenship will be redefined so that it is linked to economic productivity - a migrant that increases GDP is more Irish than a direct descendent of Brian Boru who saves his money and limits his spending.

I'm exaggerating a small bit - but the above really is the ideology of the governing classes.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996703#Comment_117996703

Bubblypop, you're a well travelled person - can you spot the difference between a South African passport holder who is an ethnic Zulu, as opposed to a South African passport holder who is an ethnic Afrikaner? No need for your to tie yourself in knots, it is a rhetorical question. Logically we can see once you create a multicultural zone, the concept of ethnicity and citizenship become divorced from each other. This is what happens when you overthrow the concept of the nation-state.

If you find this so troublesome, you need to consider why you wish to create the conditions that bring this about rather than blaming others for pointing out the entirely predictable consequences of your aim.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998700#Comment_117998700

Finnish is actually quite easy once you know the alphabet.

All words sound exactly As written, no silent letters or two letters sounding like one completely different one!

No genders either, which is great!

Even their extremely long words are very easy, they are just words put together. I think it's considered difficult because it's unlike and not related to any other language. Which to me makes it easier, because you just can't mix up words like you do with English, German, Swedish etc.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999083#Comment_117999083

No, I cannot tell the difference.

not that it matters either.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999118#Comment_117999118

Well, South Africans can spot the difference as does any genuine contributor. Afterall, the world has been overtaken by the US advocate group "Black Lives Matter", which must leave you utterly confused. They are all American citizens right? How can there be any ethnic based advocacy by Americans claiming to be persecuted by other Americans who they are completely indistinguishable from?

I have to commend you. I underestimated your willingness to take ludicrous positions for the sake of keeping true to a comical ideology.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999169#Comment_117999169

A comical ideology that people are people?

Seems very natural to me.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999169#Comment_117999169

What conspiracy nonsense are you smoking now.

In what way has the world been taken over by Black Lives Matter.

Actually let's not even focus on the world in what way has Ireland been overtaken?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996623#Comment_117996623

Interesting you say Mayo. You have hotspots there

Beatty69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997109#Comment_117997109

This is completely untrue, I did accounts for a factory belonged to a man from Eastern Europe and all of the employees came from various different countries, some had good English, some had a little but some had not ONE word, they had to bring someone else with them to communicate with me. And they were all living there between 8-10 years. Only for the owner was extremely gifted in languages (he was fluent in at least 10 that I know of) there's no way the daily running of the place could have happened.

The factory was destroyed by fire a few years back and about 50% of them went back home because they couldn't gain employment elsewhere. This was completely down to their lack of English.

I don't care one way or another if people know the history/geography of Ireland but I definitely think they need to learn English as a basis for citizenship.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001547#Comment_118001547

Yep. This perfectly illustrates why language acquisition is core to citizenship. At least in this scenario, the employees with sub-par English returned home.

My fear is that immigrants who entered this country via the language school pipeline, will ultimately become a burden on the state. Most of these folks originate from Latin American and mostly work in low skilled occupations, where little English is required. They are extremely vulnerable to an economic downturn. Despite being on student visas, it’s a truth almost universally acknowledged, that many of them plan to stay in Ireland for the long haul. In my view, this immigration channel should be tightened significantly and those who acquire long term residence, should be conditional on them attaining a decent level of English.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001905#Comment_118001905

Yep. This perfectly illustrates why language acquisition is core to citizenship. At least in this scenario, the employees with sub-par English returned home.

Which only happened because there isn't the established foreign culture within Ireland. Once the population of non-english speakers increases to a significant number, there will be businesses that don't need someone to speak English. You can see this in other European countries where immigration has been ongoing for a much longer period of time. In Germany, you'll can find areas in cities which have been entirely taken over by immigrant groups, where the language has been supplanted by that foreign group, even to the point where signs are displayed not in German, but in that language. The Turks in Frankfurt are a perfect example of this. Germany has had problems getting migrants to learn and use German, because they don't need to learn it... they've got their own micro environment within Germany, that is not German.

The same thing will happen in Ireland, once the numbers rise to the point where migrants of that group don't need to mix with Irish people because all their shops are staffed by others of their group, there will be schools catering just for that group, etc.

Despite being on student visas, it’s a truth almost universally acknowledged, that many of them plan to stay in Ireland for the long haul. In my view, this immigration channel should be tightened significantly and those who acquire long term residence, should be conditional on them attaining a decent level of English.

The 17k undocumented/illegal workers in this country who are going to get citizenship courtesy of our politicians, came in through such loopholes. It always amazes me how easily Irish people get distracted from issues such as these, and deflected away from considering the range of associated negatives. Bizarre.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996370#Comment_117996370

I think we are agreeing here, it doesn't prove anything beyond being somewhat proficient in English. I think respecting the country or not is irrelevant as it is not a measurable factor. The Canadians do test for English, tuberculosis and residency requirement. I'm order to get the residency requirement one must have live legally in the jurisdiction for a few years, which means a visa is required that is either employer sponsored or that you gain based on a points system. So they do have a system in place to improve their human resource stock essentially. Respect or disrespect is a subjective irrelevance.

I am in a position for us citizenship now but I am not sure if I want the irs on my ass for the rest of my life as they tax worldwide earnings for all citizens even for non us residents.

Podge_irl

How many people who can't speak English do you really think are getting Irish citizenship? I'm ambivalent about a language test but there are not legions of people who can't speak a word of English somehow getting Irish citizenship.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993626#Comment_117993626

I remember taking the theory version of the UK one and done way better than my English friends. They are mostly based on a knowledge of history and very little else.

Anyway what's the point sure judging by things like the driving test most people forget half of what they learn as soon as the test is passed

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002665#Comment_118002665

I personally know two Brazilians with, shall we say rudimentary English, who are now Irish citizens. I have no idea how representative they are, but it does happen.

To be fair, both of them work, albeit in low paid, precarious employment. My fear is that if they ever lose their current jobs, their ability to retrain is very limited. It’s almost inevitable that they become a burden on the state. A language test would control for this type of scenario.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002665#Comment_118002665

Why the extreme of not being able to speak a word of English..? In any case, that's unrealistic since most people know "hello" in English. The point is whether they're able to hold a conversation in English... that's an important distinction. That they have the range of vocabulary and knowledge of grammar to be able to engage with English speakers. More importantly, do they have enough English to work in an environment where English is the language used?

It's not about people with zero English at all. I lived in China for over a decade, and had picked up basic Mandarin just from exposure within a few months, without actually trying to learn the language. Gaining the ability to speak and understand for more formal situations such as opening a bank account or dealing with the visa offices, required actual committed study... and even then, my ability to speak Chinese was limited for ages because most of my life there was still being done in English (as a teacher, or with the circle of friends etc.)

This is about people seeking to gain citizenship, and they should have enough English to converse with a stranger in that language. And there will be people who have a very limited grasp of English gaining citizenship, because they're being carried by their partner who does speak English... or might be Irish themselves.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997950#Comment_117997950

I was wondering what the point of Citizenship Tests are at all.

Reading between the lines from some comments regarding American Citizenship Tests. It seems to be designed to keep 'undesirables' out. And/Or a money maker.

https://www.immigrationdirect.com/blog/2013/10/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-u-s-citizenship-test/

United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) - 'spokesman Daniel Cosgrove says that preparing for the exam gives immigrants special and meaningful context for the questions.'

According to Cosgrove, “The study materials … prepare applicants for a life of engaged citizenship, not [just] to pass a test.”

To me, it seems like carefully coded codology! How does passing a citizenship test make an individual an 'engaged' citizen?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002794#Comment_118002794

It doesn't make you an engaged citizen, any more than the rules of the road test makes you a good driver. However, it does ensure that you know the rules at one time in your life at least. Arguably, you should have to do the rules of the road test every 10 years and a simple quiz each time there is an election, so that you know the basics.

joseywhales

What is the point of countries at all?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002742#Comment_118002742

Perhaps there is an epidemic of foreigners coming to Ireland who don't speak any English, but considering it is by far the most spoken global language and I have rarely come across anyone below the age of 50 who doesn't speak at least some (and often very good) English, I somewhat doubt it is a massive problem. Acknowledging the cases raised here aside, they are clearly massively minority cases. The idea of reams of people coming over who can't speak a word of English who are getting citizenship is clearly nonsense.

I have no problem with a language test for citizenship, but I just do not remotely believe it is anything close to a big deal.