Right yes it's more accurate to say he called on the German minister Hempel to 'offer his condolences'. Thanks.
Yes he was writing to some colleague/friend in America if I remember right. I have a lot of respect for Dev even though I don't come from an FF tradition.
There wasn't a book of condolences (I think that is rather a modern invention). Back in those days in Ireland, people called to the house to express personal sympathy with the family of the person and the diplomatic thing to do would be to write a letter. I don't think such a letter exists.
You are correct on that they were not Ambassadors. The German had Legation's offices, not an Embassy.
Gray wanted to drag Ireland into the war, and Dev was having none of it.
Dev wrote this about it:
[I] noted that my call on the German minister on the announcement of Hitler’s death was played up to the utmost. I expected this.
I could have had a diplomatic illness but, as you know, I would scorn that sort of thing… So long as we retained our diplomatic relations with Germany, to have failed to call upon the German representative would have been an act of unpardonable discourtesy to the German nation and to Dr Hempel himself. During the whole of the war, Dr Hempel’s conduct was irreproachable. He was always friendly and invariably correct — in marked contrast with Gray. I certainly was not going to add to his humiliation in the hour of defeat.[1]
The British establishment of the day would have begged to differ that Collins "had a mandate" I would guess. I have seen this before, some people try to validate one example of resistance to British occupation while invalidating the other.
Thanks for the correction about the location of the book of condolences. BTW Hempel and Gray were called 'ministers to Ireland' not 'ambassadors '.
De Valera did not sign a book of condolences at the German legation's offices (which was on Northumberland Rd.) He called to the house in Dun Laoghaire of the German Ambassador (Hempel) who was a career diplomat, and not a Nazi. De Valera had a very good working relationship with Hempel (unlike the relationship with the American Ambassador who bad mouthed De Valera to the Americans).
What people forget is that the IRA of the time who were over plotting with the Nazis and getting support, regarded Dev and the Irish Government as similarly illegitimate as the British in Northern Ireland and would be happy to blow Dev's head off along with the whole of the Irish Government!
I’m am confused as to how you are posting on this thread as
post page one has you threadbanned.?
Apologies if I am mistaken.
Gerry claims lots of things.
Funny that, doesn't Gerry Adams claim to have the same democratic electoral mandate from 1919?
Collins had a Democratic mandate, not for his junior participation in the 1916 rising, but he did as director of intelligence of the IRA in the War of Independence following the SF victory in the 1919 election.
You have obviously misread, the intention is clear.
I think Dev was a stickler for convention and deeply suspicious of modernity of which fascism was a political expression.
For instance during the Spanish Civil War he resisted pressure to the end to break-off diplomatic relations with the Republic.
Another example was his signing of the book of condolences at the German legation in May 1945 on the death of its head of state. There was also an element of giving the finger to David Gray the U.S. representative who he didn't like.
Failed to acknowledge it? Might be best to stop digging now blanch152.
I have answered that question many times before, but you failed to acknowledge that, hence your fundamentally wrong conclusions. That historical context was missing.
My post that clearly states "I got the internet equivalent of no-one available to comment" is me making "fundamentally wrong conclusions"?
I did ask you if you thought the Rising was justified, and I also asked if you thought the IRA activities afterwards were justified, and you did give me an evasive "I've answered this elsewhere" answer, which I asked for you to clarify, and you never did. Exactly a "not available for comment" type answer.
What "fundamentally wrong conclusions" my post was completely factual for God sake.
https://academic.tips/question/why-is-historical-context-so-important-to-interpret-events/
"Without understanding historical context, a person might be tempted to interpret past events based on current conditions. Because the context could be drastically different, especially for events that took place many years ago, such a mistake could lead to misunderstanding the facts and making fundamentally wrong conclusions."
That quotation sums up where you are - making fundamentally wrong conclusions.
Nope, it was all in the Sunday Independent article about his involvement.
Here he is with his involvement in the Strokestown case as well. A fine upstanding member of Sinn Fein, don't you think?
Whatever, you can have whatever twisted opinion you want, but there is no denying the historical fact of the Sinn Fein of the 1940s having deep connections with the German administration of the time. Anyone who claims lineage back to 1916 through that version of Sinn Fein is stuck with the stigma.
No other political party had such links.
Exactly, you clearly understand the point I am making.
Before fascism, their leader was also a geurilla fighter (or "terrorist" in today's Fine Gael speak)..
It was as director of intelligence of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), however, that he became famous. As chief planner and coordinator of the revolutionary movement, Collins organized numerous attacks on police and the assassination in November 1920 of many of Britain’s leading intelligence agents in Ireland. He headed the list of men wanted by the British, who placed a price of £10,000 on his head.
I asked a poster here, who seemed to be rather upset at Mary Lou McDonald stating the IRA campaign up to the GCA "was justified" if they thought the Rising and the IRAs actions in the years afterwards was also justified, but unfortunately I got the internet equivalent of "no-one available to comment".
However, as rightly pointed out elsewhere on the thread, it's a fairy pointless exercise mentioning the troubles constantly in some vain effort to damage Sinn Fein, young folk (and an ever increasing amount of older folk too) don't care it's ancient history to them. Housing and health, and the incompetent government currently in situ are, (unsurprisingly so) more important to them.
Yet, De Valera stayed well clear of it and he would have been in a prime position to become a fascist dictator.
I don't think that SF are the only party to have a Nazi connection bearing in mind that as far as I recall, it was Cathal Goulding of the Officials (IRA & Sinn Fein) who erected the statue to Russell. The Officials later became the Workers Party then Demoratic Left and then I think merged into Labour! (I may have left out a few steps there!) This would have been Eoin Harris's origins as well!
Are you saying that Russell believed in Nazi ideology - that in fact he was a Nazi?
Fascism was widely acceptable/respectable for most of the 1930s. Even Churchill had good things to say about Mussolini's Italy. Much of Catholic social doctrine of the time was informed by fascist ideology.
Agreed.
Was he waving hello with his arm outstretched on stage with fascists doing same? You're having a laugh.
They don't cancel each other out. One was SF dealing with Nazis to help their cause. The other was a fascist attending a fascist rally giving a fascist salute. Neither great behaviour.
What argument are you talking about? I was trying to discuss the HSE proposal from SF when people headed off down this rabbit hole. If you just want to make up people having arguments with you then off you go. Sorry I can't help you with that
I know this is probably off topic but......
CnG should at least be given credit for establishing/maintaining democracy in the Irish Free State through difficult times.
On topic:
As I see it SF today hasn't broken with the anti-democratic tradition but is merely using the Democratic institutions to achieve it's ends. As always (like in 1937-43) for them the end justifies the means and if the chosen means isn't working then they are happy to try something else.
im commenting on posts in this thread ,
blanch 152 "This is the problem for Sinn Fein. They want to claim lineage back to 1916, but they want to deny the Nazi collaboration bit in the middle. It turns them into liars."
blanch 152 "If Sinn Fein drop the claim to lineage back to 1916 and the celebration of Sean Russell, I will happily link them to the Nazis."
so I'm quite entitled to comment on it thank you very much .
this exchange started because i correctly said blanch was only to happy to deny an sf lineage to 1916 , but also only to happy to maybe rethink that if he can link sf to nazis
now when i point out the realities of who exactly in dail eirrean historically aligned themselves with nazis , and sent condolences on hitler death it is so uncomfortable , that it is now off topic and I should start a new thread on it ???
you fellas love moving yourselves into some corner and holes lolol
There were lots of versions of SF over the decades since its formation in 1905, numerous splits and factional internal politics. The ones who currently hold the franchise are the ones who share power up north and are hoping to be the largest party in the next coalition in the Republic (26 counties in SF-Speak).
Blanch was just pointing out that people cannot have it both ways, trying to link SF to 1916 but then refusing to accept the link to the Nazi.
As I have already said I don't see a link between the Provisional Sinn Fein and any other versions. They got created in 1970 and that is end of it.
In terms of the other conversations about Nazi, well maybe start up a thread on the subject, this is current affairs forum and nothing about nazi is current affairs from what I can see.
i do not know either way , im only pointing out the flaw in blanch theory , he insists sf only have lineage back to the 70s , if he is correct , then he is incorrect to try to suggest the present day sf have " collaboration with nazis " because both things cant be true !
if you want to make that nazi connection , then you would have to firstly accept the 1916 lineage , because the two things cannot be both true or false
as i stated , given the blueshirts connections with mussolini , franco and hitler , and dev sending condolences to germany following hitlers death , if you guys are correct about sf lineage only going back to the 1970 well then that would leave them as the only major player party with no history with nazism connections , you guys like to paint lovely corners for yourselves lolol
