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National Development Plan 2022-2030

Peregrine

The new NDP will be published before the budget. Likely on October 4th. It'll be very housing and transport heavy.

A total spending of €165bn compared to €116bn in the current 2018-2027 NDP.

The Cabinet agreed a capital spending budget of €136 billion, which is an increase of €45 billion on the existing plan.

Further investment from commercial semi-State companies and other State bodies will bring the total investment in the plan to €165 billion over the next decade.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/0727/1237597-ndp-regan/

Some early reports claim that there will be €35bn for public transport but the same figure is quoted for transport overall. McGrath's statement sounds like it's €35bn for transport overall.

https://independent.ie/irish-news/politics/35bn-investment-in-public-transport-in-revised-national-development-plan-40877912.html

That's still a lot of money. You'd expect around €20bn for public transport out of that.

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Comments

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974890#Comment_117974890

How is this anything less than delay/cancellation? It's gone from the realm of being firmly in the future to the realm of fantasy/aspiration.

is_that_so

...

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974469#Comment_117974469

Sure but this a funding commitment to replace the fleet with 9 trainsets which will be enough for an hourly service. It's definitely progress. SEUPB funding is involved too as well as the NI Executive. I can definitely see it being a reality by 2030.

Deedsie

Will there be a breakdown of funding towards specific rail lines on the network or just a €x billion for maintainence and upgrade of the existing network?

The Ballybrophy line for example is long overdue being modernised. Completing the CWR track relay for the entire line and upgrading signaling, automating gates etc

"How is this anything less than delay/cancellation? It's gone from the realm of being firmly in the future to the realm of fantasy/aspiration."

The NDP says it is "enter the statutory planning process in the first half of 2022".

That is certainly not cancellation or anything like the serious delay that doom-sayers have been spreading over the last few weeks.

If anything, it is an extremely firm commitment to Metrolink. If there were going to cancel it, it would have been dropped from this new NDP.

marno21

It's the same old ideas reheated because none of the same old ideas have been built yet. No point in new ideas unless we can get the old ones built first.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975135#Comment_117975135

I agree, it is very boring, but at least non of the old idea's have been dropped and instead they are being recommitted too.

Peregrine

I don't think MetroLink is being delayed, I think most of the delays are on the planning, design and construction side. Big questions need to be asked about resources allocated for planning and design from 2017 onwards because they missed every milestone so far but that's in the past now.

I think it will go to ABP in Q2 2022, start construction in 2025 and will be completed around 2032.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974730#Comment_117974730

That's what you'd call a nice to have project. Zero chance it'll ever be built.

Pete_Cavan

Publishing costs for projects like Metrolink in the NDP would be meaningless anyway. Projects have to pass through the various stages of the Spending Code and it is the costs at those stages that matter. The Preliminary Business Case for Metrolink will be submitted soon but obviously a lot can change between now and RO approval. Same with DART+ where design isn't finalised yet.

The NDP really is just a list of projects which will be funded up until the big decision has to be made, which is award of the construction contract. Only then are actual costs known. Being in the NDP probably doesn't really mean a whole lot (see Ryan's comments on some road projects not happening), but not being in it means the project is dead for at least a decade. Ideally there would be some kind of quarterly or half yearly update on the projects included with cost estimates at the various PSC stages included.

roddney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975244#Comment_117975244

If I've learnt anything over the last decade or so it's that the only thing that matters is when construction starts. We're left to hope here but that's all we have. Even trust is probably a step too far given cancellations the last time when railway order was in place.

It's a shame how projects are run here. Realistically we need to be aiming to build a minimum of 2km of new Luas or Metro track every year and be planning projects all the time, not start stop.

MyLove4Satan

The Irish Government, in partnership with Kinzen reported thousands of posts and tweets to social media companies as “misinformation”. The clear intent of reporting these posts as misinformation is to ask social media companies to suppress them, to reduce their circulation, and to make sure that as few people as possible see them. This is the caliber of the politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants we are somehow expecting to be telling us the truth about building the Metro and DART Underground 'this time'. It is always worth bearing in mind that we are dealing with pathologically lying and devious socially-adept psychopathic scum before you get your hopes up.

You're not ever going to be on a metro to the airport or go under the city centre in a DART ever.

crushproof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978419#Comment_117978419

The last decade? I'd say the last 50 years. Incredibly inept country when it comes to public transport and urban plannng. I just read about a brand new innovative suburb of Vienna being built. Started planning in 2006 for 50,000 residents in very livable surroundings. Already has a metro stop built, 20,000 residents, leisure facilities and 2 tram lines under construction. Compare that to the state of Adamstown which is on the same land area.

Bsharp

After a few false summits I've now reached peak cynicism.

I sense the political view for our public transport system is to hope WFH papers over the cracks, and this combined with EVs, will somehow address the climate issue. Might help to a small degree but a failure of judgement overall.

They've successfully torpedoed a lot of housing development. It's as if the relationship between land-use and transport doesn't exist. I'd envisage commuter towns to get a lot bigger as the political issue of housing trumps transport and sustainability. We won't get sustainable and compact development patterns without decent public transport.

Tomrota

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979065#Comment_117979065

They would love the commuter towns to get bigger. Then they can use their ‘feasibility’ studies to show that there is insufficient population/population density to justify any public transport in the commuter towns. Just look at Naas. Highest number of housing completions almost every year since 2017 and not a penny spent on improving public transport in the area. Not even a local bus service.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978724#Comment_117978724

Monard was supposed to be a new town built outside Cork on the Cork-Dublin mainline. First set out in the Cork Area Strategic Plan in 2001, it was envisaged to have 13,000 residents within a decade. In 2009 the Cork County Development Plan said the plan was to have 7,800 residents and the train station built on the mainline by 2020. Today it remains agri land with not a single sod turned or real plan in place. The train station remains a fantasy which is rolled out every now and again in various masterplans. An epic public policy and implementation failure.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979065#Comment_117979065

I'm pretty sure every Irish Government has been hoping someone (Tesla 😄) will announce "Driverless flying cars coming soon!" so they can justify never doing any road or public transport projects ever again to free up cash for another €1.8million Dail printer.

roadmaster

All the talk about public transport and the NTA cant even extend a simple bus route between louth and westmeath

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2021/10/06/three-years-later-and-still-no-sign-of-a-bus-service/

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022169#Comment_118022169

To be fair to the NTA, they have actually been very proactive in expanding local and bus regional services across the country significantly over the past number of years.

They’ve funded a large expansion of Local Link regular bus services (as opposed to the the door to door service) around the country, often replacing once a week Bus Éireann routes.

At the same time a lot of regional BÉ services have expanded too.

I can’t offer an explanation for the delay in providing this service, which was supposed to be an extension of the 167 between Dundalk and Ardee, other than clearly they don’t have sufficient vehicles (and indeed drivers) to do it yet.

There are a large number of new vehicles for regional PSO services to be delivered to BÉ in the next few months, some of which will hopefully be used to expand the services (as opposed to replacing old vehicles).

There’s sadly a time lag between announcing new services and delivery which is caused by procurement time, recruitment, and funding.

pigtown

What do people think about the proposed Limerick suburban rail network? As far as I know it's the first time one has been officially proposed by government. It's quite comprehensive and the vast majority is an existing/disused line which should mitigate some of the cost

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037994#Comment_118037994

I'd guess upgrades to existing corridors could take place before 2040, not much else. I'd view the network in the NDP as political, no real intention to build it anytime soon.

Adare/Foynes link could be built sooner if the cost is shared with rail freight coming from the port and a drastic change to the development patterns near stations along the route.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037994#Comment_118037994

It's quite a departure from the Draft Limerick–Shannon Transport Strategy and I'm very interested to see the details when the Strategy gets published later this year. Restoring the old lines would be quite a statement — building a new one to Shannon would be even bigger. Although, I don't think the new line to Shannon will happen within the lifetime of this NDP.

I do have concerns. While Limerick-Limerick Junction can be doubled, most of the rest of it is single track so frequency will be an issue. How long are people prepared to wait for a train in a city the size of Limerick?

Speaking of the size of Limerick. There would have to be a very large increase in population around all the stations to justify a large commuter rail system. High density development. Planning for that should start now and should go hand in hand with the Transport Strategy.

The approach to Colbert from Adare/Patrickswell is rubbish. A commuter rail system will need a new one that doesn't involve reversing. That's going to be expensive.

Similarly, new alignment into Mungret will be expensive but Mungret is pretty much a group of one-off houses at the moment. That will to have to change. A lot.

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118039143#Comment_118039143

Yeah I can't see the link to Shannon being built. Some passing loops along the rest of the network should be OK to start I'd say.

Getting the council to direct investment to the proposed train stations would be a struggle given their attitude to resi in the city.

The biggest positive is Irish Rail's argument that with the new DART and commuter trains for Dublin that there will be surplus diesel carriages that might as well be put to use

Cookiemunster

The problem with the Limerick commuter lines idea is that its unlikely to entice anyone out of their cars as it wouldn't be any faster than driving for most people and would in fact be slower for most.

The only large center of employment it would serve is Raheen, but if you live in Moyross for example, you'd have to travel to Colbert and change train. It would be much faster to use the motorway.

If you work/study in UL or Plassey then it's of no use as there are no lines running through the area.

Really Limerick badly needs a functioning bus network before a half arsed commuter rail network. A Bus Connects system as proposed in the LSMATS would be cheaper and done properly would attract a higher ridership.

Pete_Cavan

Apart from maybe some improvements on existing services, I can't see much happening with Limerick commuter rail. The potential for services into Colbert must be very limited anyway given the inability to run thru services.

A station on the southern edge of Ennis, along with new developmentwould be a good idea. Might be worth looking into providing a station on the western side of Cratloe, with a new link to the N18 and running a feeder bus to Shannon. Encourage further development in the village too.

Not a hope of anything happening with the Foynes line anyway. I'd file the idea alongside Ryan's reintroducing wolves suggestion tbh.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037994#Comment_118037994

Well they wont comit to funding the completion of the final 8.5 miles of CWR track renewal on the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line.

The final remaining section of jointed track on the entire rail network will remain a while longer if they dont see to their senses and provide the funding to get it done. Attached is a pic of the section in red.

20211030_074544.jpg

The line is closed tomorrow to start the next 3.5 miles of upgraded track. These intermittent closures are really having an impact on the line.

The final 8.5 miles need to be completed in a single closure in 2022. Then they can review speed restrictions and improve journey times. Then with an improved timetable and things will start looking up.

Perhaps in time additional services could be introduced to the line.

[Deleted User]

Looks like Metrolink might be moving forward

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/not-enough-funding-to-progress-significant-number-of-projects-in-national-development-plan-transport-chief-warns-41014814.html

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037994#Comment_118037994

it's a good and necessary idea but i don't see any of it happening.

i am in no doubt it would be a great success, especially when combined with greater development in the areas along each line.

there would certainly be a couple of issues that would need to be sorted but doable if the will is there which it isn't.

Sam Russell

I think the Limerick suburban rail network will suffer from the curse of St Munchin.

“According to the Bard of Thomond, Munchin put a curse on the people of Limerick because nobody would help him build his church. His curse states that no Limerick person will ever be successful in their own town."

Ask Willie O'Dea or Michael Noonan.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129599#Comment_118129599

I don't see how you could construct a useful and well-patronised suburban service from the bits and pieces of single track lines around Limerick even with massive capital expenditure to upgrade tracks, adding loops and build stations. Colbert is a walk from the commercial/shopping centre of the city and it's the closest you could get to a city centre station. The other lines pass through low-density mature suburbs or through marsh and flood lands which at best might support some sort of outer-axial half-circle line but running through areas with little scope for development. Much better to provide frequent and prioritized radial bus through-services covering the main spines into the city - with services running along the Dublin Road, Tipperary Road, Ennis Road, O'Connell St and through Corbally, Caherdavin, Raheen, etc.