When talking amalgamations there can be two different interpretations of what exactly is being proposed.
Small country clubs go through peaks and troughs numbers wise but they are a vital part of the community and provide a great service. Exposing as many children as possible to sport and GAA is great and should be encouraged and if a club can go it alone underage it's wrong to amalgamate just so some coaching wannabe can chase some silverware.
However for the premier tier of the county competition I think everyone should have the opportunity to compete and improve themselves if they wish to play at a higher lever. A county championship like they have in Kerry would be great to see, with maybe 10-12 teams encompassing all 40 clubs in the county. After that the clubs stay clubs and compete individually in the regular club competitions at senior, intermediate and junior. In Kerry they also have additional local league/championships based on your locality with all the clubs from that region be it junior, senior or intermediate competing against each other. Makes for great local derbies and grudge matches with the smaller clubs getting a cut at the big boys.
Think that would work great here and the additional competitions would add a bit of spice to things. Personally I'd have more interest in say 4 local leagues/championships (e.g North/South/East and West Cavan championship) than the league the way it currently runs. Plus we don't get to see county players compete anyway and the competition has a drawn out feel to it. The current league could be condensed a bit, local leagues/championships could be run anytime and not dependant on the release of county players. There would be an abundance of games for non intercounty players to play all year round.
8 teams would be loads. Relegate the current bottom 9-13 right now just for handiest sakes 🤩
Peter Quinn did a report back in the early part of the last decade. I know it recommended that senior clubs were cut down to 9 but did it have any comment on amalgamations? I can't find the contents of the report online. Just a reference to it in a Joe.ie article laughing that Cavan were told to cut the number of senior clubs from 13 to 9 but actually increased it to 16 at one stage!
Sorry, I'll have to bite. I have no idea what this means (it's not your clearest sentence). But I think you're going to use a small club with limited players who have massively exceeded expectations to stay in senior for the last 4 years to suggest standards need raising at a county level? A two point loss to Lavey, a one point loss to Kingscourt and a five point loss to many people's favourites Ramor.
Quick comparison: your boys (the mighty Lough) currently have a massive one point more than Shercock with the same games played, have the same points scored (40) and Shercock have conceded 4 more points. On that basis, anyone watching the Lough over the last three weeks could make the same claim about standards.
People in glass houses and all that....
Last time I checked Cavan, Longford & Leitrim weren’t struggling to put nine kids on a field so they can have their own U13 team. They also hadn’t gone a decade or so without winning a game like a Corlough or Maghera.
Why would I stop labouring a point when you continue labouring that I said amalgamations would lead to a higher standard of football. It’s just one of a number of points I made, and was actually a lesser one, but you’ve continually pointed to it as though it’s my only argument.
Could you answer my question re when you last attended a club or county board meeting? Like I said above, if your only knowledge of the work involved is what the treasurer told you in the local 30 years ago, I’m not surprised you have very little knowledge of what’s required.
You also seemed to struggle to grasp that managers are paid when I suggested it was a pooling of management resources. Ask some clubs about it. You’ll be shocked to hear there are management teams out there pulling in quite a bit.
It has gone from amalgamations due to lack of numbers to clubs not able to get chair persons and treasurers. I don't know a club in the county operating without any of them at the moment. Even your point about the lack of numbers in the school in Leitrim and the success of their senior team was totally ignored and sneered at in a totally different direction.
Go and watch Shercock a few weeks in a row for someone to tell you they're a senior football team and see if you agree we don't need to raise standards.
No, I'm dismissing that you see Leitrim as any sort of yardstick to measure a county against. Leitrim are generally used by most as a barometer for what not to do. You may think that's arrogant but its the fact of the matter.
Every footballer finds their grade. That's what reserve is there for. I actually sometimes enjoy watching the reserve games more than the first team games.
The fact is that clubs like Corlough, and indeed Maghera I suspect soon, just won't be able to sustain themselves. As I asked you, when was the last time you attended a club or county board meeting? Go to a club meeting and see the issues clubs are facing. Chairman, secretary, treasurer - these roles are taking up the same hours now as a part time job, a full time job at certain times of the year - for example, a large fundraiser. You had a big club like Ballinagh, backed by a town, struggling to fill their board a couple of years back.
You are just looking at it as a game to get players on the pitch - that's not the reality of it anymore. Every club is nearly like a mini business now and the fact is that the population and ''volunteers'' aren't there to support 40 clubs going forward. That's why a pooling of resources makes sense, unless things dramatically change but, if anything, other sports like rugby and soccer are coming stronger - which I don't mind seeing. The biggest thing clubs have now is the growth of Ladies GAA.
You seem to only see what happens when the clubs have 15-20 lads on the pitch on a Sunday but don't have knowledge of all the effort, work and funding required to maintain that, and how much some clubs are being stretched at the minute.
It's not rocket science for some clubs and is based on very specific age cohorts. For example, if you had a parish that fielded a minor team with a panel of say 20, at a minimum there will be every 2 years 10 players moving into the senior panel. If you take that as a rough estimate (taking into effect lads getting married or losing interest due to lack of time to commit or not getting game time or emigrating or injury) that within 5 years you would have a panel of 50. Which of course doesn't happen. So having numbers at a specific time in place (in 2020 you could have a rake of under 14s and then nothing for another 5/10 years due to age cohorts in the area) that necessitates playing as an amalgamation for the age related restrictions for underage football and not need to amalgamate for adult grades. Barring the odd areas in Cavan with booming populations that is and has been the norm. And even the areas like Killygarry that have lots of kids will have a slump in 10 years time as there will be a natural gap until more kids are born and grow up (unless loads of people move there for an indefinite period).
It doesn't mean that clubs won't struggle at times and possibly go under (that can and will happen) but there is a massive amount of local pride and social capital in having your own local team. In terms of volunteers, most that i know will crib and moan but they will continue to line pitches, train kids, sell lotto, make tae, wash kits and give people lifts because that is their local GAA Club, they have always done it, their families have always done it, it part of their local identity and they love doing it, and i for one think it is a real strength of the GAA that makes it unique and something that should be celebrated.
County standards can and were raised by a real strategy in youth development that reaped rewards in the past and that's where things need to be explored.
Whilst there is logic that amalgamations could potentially make county football more competitive, there is also an unspoken tension between club and county. Sure at a local level, we all love to see lads break into the county team. And the extra training and conditioning benefits players which then usually makes them better club players. But for many, club is where it is at, and having lads off playing county (and getting knocks or prioritising county games) isn't where it is at.
Look at the Gaels at their pomp or Castlerahan recently. No one cribbing their about players' priorities in those clubs!
And not every club brings lads together solely for the chance of winning (clearly, look at the results). For many, it is a social thing with health benefits of keeping fit for as long as possible, representing your parish and who knows, actually enjoying playing the game. Amamalgamations actually undermine many of those benefits by limiting the amount of games lads will get and discouraging those on the fringes by reducing their chances of game time or connection with their club.
Some years Drung might have 9 in a age group and Kill have 14 and vice versa in other years. It would be very rare that either would have enough to go on there own and the agreement is that one club won't let the other down. As it moves up through the ages the dropouts start and 9 doesn't be long becoming 2 or 3 after minor but 2 every year will keep a club going.
The two teams is a county board idea to get as many playing as possible. It's better to have 20 lads guaranteed a game every week instead of 11 or 13.
Why are they amalgamating at underage level then? Something not adding up somewhere. Looking at some of the age groupings, they’re actually amalgamating to enter two teams - not sure where the sense is in that.
Be a bit off a piss take also for Drung and Kill to join at Senior when they can field on their own don't you think?
The Killygarry & Gaels amalgamation was a total piss take. Much like Lacken & Gowna amalgamating each year as Southern Gaels. Both clubs could field on their own most years.
The extra funding would come from two areas pooling their lotto, fees to the county board cut in half etc.
Wound you like a saucer of milk? Not sure why you seem to find the need to reduce a debate to catty remarks.
One of the posters above said Swad & Corlough have about twenty players. Both were struggling for numbers pre amalgamation so how is a club cutting half its players amalgamating? Did Swad lose their best player because of an amalgamation or because he had a desire to play at a higher level?
You are aware GAA managers are paid quite a lot of “expenses” now? Two teams amalgamated means they are using one manager and not two. It also means volunteers are not as hard to come by - those are also pretty difficult to find as what used to be a “volunteer” role as a club secretary can take the hours that a part time job would now.
In relation to training, training should be at a higher level and improve the players taking part.
Dernacrieve I believe is Corlough, Swad & Shannon Gaels but I didn’t confirm that as I wasn’t sure and, if I was incorrect, you’d hold that against me so I was damned if I asked the question or hazarded a guess either way.
To be honest, if you’re using any aspect of Leitrim football as a barometer, well…. Let’s just say there’s a reason Leitrim are regularly used held out as a yardstick for mediocrity.
Honest question, when was the last time you attended a club or county board meeting and saw at first hand some of the issues clubs are facing?
I would agree with all that and calling for amalgamations just to improve competitions is ridiculous. Just because clubs join at underage does not mean they are struggling to field at senior level. If they got only 2 players coming into a senior panel ever year they will survive. Its not that long ago the gaels and killygarry joined at Minor, going by Lemlins logic maybe they should amalgamate?
Also they wouldn't get any additional funding. Why do you think they would Lemlin? Clubs look out for themselves they don't care if a Cavan club never wins ulster.
Cornafean are actually doing quite well at underage but allegedly that is because they are lifting players from Ballinagh and Ballinagh are now in bother - they could only field a 9 a side team at U13, not very good for a town team!
Cornafean,Arva and Killeshandra are in the one parish. They probaly wouldn't want to join and but Killeshandra and Arva are joined underage. Those clubs struggle to field a team on their own underage.
Cornafeanl been joined a bit with Butersbridge in recent years.
They are all Intermediate teams,Arva struggling this year with injuries and players away. They will probaly end up in Junior,but the 3 clubs together would be a good Senior team.
Not sure I have the knowledge or data to suggest what clubs ''should'' amalgamate. There's a lad somewhere would be higher paid and better situated than me to do it. I'd imagine though, as I previously said, that clubs who are unable to field even a team of players who are 11/12 years of age, of their own stead, should be looking at it so you're looking then at Blackwater (Maghera/Munterconnaught, Mountnugent also join this at later levels), St Finbarrs (Kill/Drung), Naomh Brid (Redhills,Drumalee) & Dernacrieve (can anyone englighten me exactly what clubs make up that amalgamation?)
I've outlined some of the reasons above - the main benefit being a pooling of resources and funding. Making the competition more competitive also and resulting in a higher standard of training/matches for their players.
The reason against seems to be that some old lad that played for the club 80 years ago when they won their single solitary championship feels the club will lose its identity if they amalgamate. That makes great sense though - its not like the world and demographics are changing.
Can you tell us which teams you feel should amalgamate and the reason for it please?
How is it ''nonsense'' to suggest having less clubs would make the championship more competitive, at all levels? Not sure what ''smart boys'' are?
It's not just to do with club to population ratio and demographics. It's about a pooling of resources (management, training etc.) and, more importantly, funding also. This would lead to better teams and a higher standard - god knows, a Cavan team might even become competitive enough to win an Ulster club championship.
When will Corlough ever get a sniff of being able to field a team again? Never is the answer. I heard they were operating off a school of 30 to 40 pupils. That isn't sustainable.
As for their amalgamation with Swad being held up as an example, it isn't a good one as it was two poor teams amalgamating. Swad were already experiencing issues and were on a downward spiral.
A club doesn't have to lose their identity either when they amalgamate.
The lads on We Are Cavan said that the Swad / Corlough team only had a panel of 20 for the Denn game (or possibly even fewer). So a relatively straightforward amalgamation isn't bringing any immediate rewards (results are also very poor).
And given that in theory you could have someone playing senior football from 18 to 35 (or more) not being able to field a team at a certain underage level isn't an absolute that a club is about to limp into an amalgamation. Every parish goes through cycles of population. Granted some are on the up for numbers (suburbs around Cavan town for example, commuter belts to Dublin) and others will always struggle due to emigration, but changes in working from home could as easily bolster numbers for clubs in West Cavan if a decent broadband service was a runner (for example).
Fair post that.
Is Drumalee not usually relying mainly on St Clare's? Most people from the town are running their kids out to Killygarry or Butlersbridge schools now. I think that is why Drumalee has suffered. The estates they also would have relied on now don't have families or gaelic playing people in them.
Laragh were saying, whilst still on the pitch, after winning the intermediate that they wouldn't stop there and wanted to go for senior. I also heard they were quite vocal at the Breffni Awards that year about what they expected to do at senior level.
They took the year off last year due to no relegation and now they're back with guns blazing.
Drumalee are a good example but not in the way you think. They have a huge potential pool of players but they are not getting them into the club. Amalgamation is a quick fix there but the proper fix is to get to work at ground roots and get to kids in the schools and get them up to your club.
There are other clubs surely that should be looking at amalgamations I suppose but they should be doing it for the right reasons, making sure everyone gets to play ball.
I think you're right, Laragh much like Gowna last week might want to throw down a marker and go for it.
Laragh had enough of a rest last year! They've a big panel alright but I can't see them resting lads. They are unbeaten despite only having 4 points and I'd expect they will look to keep the momentum going. Laragh are arrogant and will think they can win the championship so it'd be a big plus for them to knock out Crosserlough.
A lot of teams are playing counter attacking football where they drop men back to defend but then attack at speed. I don't think that suits Castlerahan as they are too slow at getting the ball forward themselves.
Less of the sneering of the Junior championship and clubs there will always be Junior clubs and the players are happy to represent their club.
Drung and Kill have panels of 25 each with a few others who would tog out for Junior games if needed. If you got your way you would deny senior football for at least 25 players and probably lead to them hanging up there boots or trying other sports.
The day may come that they will need to amalgamate but it will be down to lack off numbers and nothing else.
Yes Coothill are doing well at underage but it's not long ago they had to join with Drung and Kill to field in the minor championship and with their population should not be happening. For all their good work they are still happy to welcome players Kill have developed from age 5. Drung and Kill have been joining at underage over 40 years and it has worked well.
The only thing in Crosserlough's favour is that Laragh are through and might look to rest a few lads before the quarters. But on current form, you would have to think Ballinagh will have enough to get over the line. Ball all accounts they should've beaten Laragh, ran the Gaels way closer than Castlerahan did and gave a really good account of themselves against Ramor. Castlerahan just look like a side that has too many miles on the clock and without the likes of Brady, Flanagan or Mackey are lacking leaders on the pitch at the minute (Oisin Kiernan aside, and he's not even been at the level he was last year).
