In France they probably would not bat an eyelid at such carry on. I see no purpose at all in trying to connect Sophie's marital difficulties to a list of possible motives for her killing. An assassin hired by the murderous husband who contrives to make the killing look like anything but the work of a professional killer? It's the most absurd conspiracy theory of the many attatching to this case and also this loose speculation regarding her sexual life in Cork is insulting to the woman's memory. Of course it was Bailey who first made reference to both of these theories in his articles covering the case in order to deflect attention away from himself as he was aware he was regarded as a suspect at that point. This was a crime of passion, unplanned, committed on impulse by a local and motivated by... who knows? Lust, jealousy, envy, rejection or personal vendetta or grievance.
The "This thread is going around in circles" line has been said a few times here. What do people expect, a straight line of conversation that comes to a natural conclusion and the case solved? There's over 6000 posts on the thread. Some contributors haven't read through the whole thing. Some points that get rehashed bring clarity.
Can we agree to get over the fact that there is inherently going to be repetition here, and that in the interest of keeping the conversation going and allowing newcomers to get up to speed we should just accept it?
Not having a go at you Polly701, many others have said the same thing over the last few weeks.
I agree that some of the evidence points towards a morning murder. I'd be inclined to think that myself.
This thread is going around in circles..
Regarding the time of death, the photos of her kitchen area the next day show an uncovered loaf of bread that had been cut into - I just don't believe this is something that would be left out overnight. Plus the first Guard on the scene noted 'wet' blood around her nose. There were other indicators too of it being more likely that the murder occurred in the early morning.. Perhaps 6am or so.
The murder could not have occurred before midnight, she was on the phone to Daniel between 11pm and midnight.
I was saying the very same thing to Leonardo diCaprio only yesterday
A Dream of Death says Gardai thought the killing was between 11 pm and 2 am.
i just wonder why they thought that at first, i hadn't heard that before
i disagree . i am only 45 pages in but it is ok so as far being readable is concerned. good as crimeguy anyway. It was man who wrote it. He says the blood on the back door was unknown so seems to be some innacuracies
We can only speculate on the time of the killing. The body was left there out in the cold for a long time. The pathologist couldn't establish a time of death.
I would also speculate that the murder took place at some time between 11pm and 2am. Based on the information we have, the way she was dressed, etc... I am more inclined in thinking that the murder was before midnight, and the murderer made contact just about when she was about to go to bed.
The Gards messed up so much in this case. At this time, 25 years passed, it doesn't matter what the Guards were thinking and what not, and why they were thinking this or that. They got Marie Farrell into making false statements, so you can form your own opinion how serious this all is.....
Yerwan who wrote that is full of shite.
It reads like a novel.
A Dream of Death says Gardai thought the killing was between 11 pm and 2 am. That wouldn't give IB much time to get there.
If Bailey had burnt evidence in the fire wouldn't you think he would know there would be remains and rake it through to get rid of the buttons and boots eyelits etc.
I honestly wouldn't buy any of those houses. They are all overpriced, and too isolated and too many "oddball characters" like Bailey or Alfie move there. For a trip to the pub you need a car, plus one can't drink very much if one is driving so the craig is limited, and even for basic shopping for food you need a car. If it serves as a holiday home you'd need a rental car for the whole duration of the stay. Only other option is bringing your own car taking the direct ferry from France, if one doesn't mind the rough seas, - it's a trip over open Atlantic with occasional swell.
Yes, the area and the countryside is something one can fall in love with, however I'd prefer the structure of a village setting as a minimum and still enjoy the outdoors and the hiking. Kinsale would be the top choice in the area, but also Clonakilty or Skibereen, if one prefers it more rural.
Everything about this case is strange, like the purchase of the cottage itself. A cheating husband giving a cheating wife money to buy a cottage in an isolated part of Ireland, and he never even goes there with her? Based on the behaviour it seems like he's happy when she is away from him.....
If there were to be a 'best cottages in the world' competitition, I'd put money on that 'cottage' winning. With 13 acres as well. Not necessarily the best house in west Cork. But in the running.
You can only have a logical based analysis, a motive based approach, as well as a financial or benefit based approach. Who benefits from her death the most? I also think that the motive for the murder was very strong. After all, who of us would hike for 1 or 2 hours at night in the cold moist air, possible even lashing down rain, to Sophie's house murder her, and hike back with at least as much planning to know that she was there, and she was alone. ( and if driven risked that he could have been seen, the license plate recognized, etc... )
Nearly all murder cases are down to money / financial benefit, drugs or drug relates matters or love and relationship matters.
Other than general violence a lust for murder or a thirst of blood, or a general anger, Bailey would have had absolutely the lowest of the low in terms of financial benefit to Sophie's death. Daniel Toscan du Plantier would have received a financial payout from the life insurance on his wife and avoided a messy and costly divorce. A drug trafficker would have protected his income by silencing Sophie.
Thus this case can only be profiled like the Jack the Ripper case. We have no evidence anymore, hardly any witnesses, and questions which should have been asked 25 years ago, were not asked back then.
The murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier has become nothing more than a subject of discussion in a pub on a long winter night.
I wonder if Yvonne Ungerer ever corrected her statement that Sophie left them at 17:45 on her last day, or perhaps it was always just a typo error?
Sophie was in Crookhaven having tea and scones at 16:45, and left a message on an answer machine from her house at about 17:30 so there is no way Mrs Ungerers time could be accurate. If it was a genuine mistake on her part it would seem a strange one as it would be dark at 17:45 and surely she would remember if Sophie left in the dark or not.
true but the comment i was replying to was that she denied saying it, she didn't
I think we've all looked at a full moon, hearing dogs barking or hounds or foxes in the night and got an 'eerie' feeling.
I'm not reading anything more into it than that.
which could me anything or noting...
Also the pathologist would not be fooled if she was, say, strangled he would know.
Also reasonable to assume that because of the clothing tightly stretched off the wire the body may have been tilted down with the head at the lowest point.
Yes, if planned it points to financial gain or a need to silence.
I think if Bailey was rebuffed he'd simply consider it a temporary setback and walk away.
I'm thinking some kind of bizarre, unplanned event, but it's just a hunch, I know your analysis is more logical.
I thought about that too, the difference in bleeding between heart beating and stopped would be much more pronounced if a larger blood vessel was torn, otherwise I think it's similar types of soft tissue seepage that would be evident.
That is very unlikely, if she was dead when she was assaulted with the block she would hardly bleed so much. No circulation. Photos show a lot of blood soaked into ground
I`m not so sure the Crimeguy timeline is accurate.
It is only as accurate as the people quoted - secondary research
You are wrong. She confirms it. Jules says re IB "he said at some stage he had a funny feeling that something was going on ..very strange something's going on somewhere" The Du Plantier Case RTE 14.45 mins in
quoted twice cannot remove, sorry
@ mamboozle pm'd
When the case is at this stage, it's only a "follow the money" kind of discussion around the motive.
Whether the murder was planned or unplanned is completely unclear. There is no evidence supporting either the one or the other. I am personally inclined to believe that it was planned and a professional, rather than unplanned.
The murderer must at least have known to a degree of certainty that she was staying at her home that night, and was alone and that she would fly back to France soon. Possibly he knew that it was her last night staying in Ireland as well. The murderer would also have been prepared to walk quite a bit at night, and if he was taking a car, the risk of the license plate be be seen would certainly have been very high.
I am mostly inclined to think that if it was planned, then the husband-hired hitman or the drug trafficing-silencing would have been the motive for murder. The rejected lover or even Bailey visiting would have been unplanned in terms of motive.
Only the murder weapon, the stone and brick, seem to suggest that it was unplanned and quite possibly done by a non-professional but it doesn't prove anything. However the murderer could have also been to the house before, and have known with certainty that he would find a brick or a stone of a certain size to do the killing.
Marie Farrell is a completely unreliable witness who recalled her statement about having seen somebody at night, she also walked out of the courtroom while she was under oath and questioned. The latter is a complete no-go. And even if Marie Farrell would have seen and identified Bailey on that road, it doesn't prove at all that he did it at all. It's not a crime to be out at night at Kaelfadda Bridge, it is neither the crime scene nor close and next to the crime scene.
I`m not so sure the Crimeguy timeline is accurate. Foster provides the Sean Murray statement in his book. Murray was the attendant at Hurley`s garage who put petrol in a blue or grey `96 reg Fiesta. But he says it was between 2 and 3pm. Crimeguy has the blonde female and the tall male at the petrol station between 15-00 and 16-00. Murray was also uncertain of the date. He said...."before Christmas, most likely Friday the 20th." Sophie collected the keys of her hire car at 2-30. She couldn`t have been in Skibbereen before 3pm. Murray goes on to say...."I am sure this car was a Fiesta and that it was a hired car because the hubcaps were missing". Sophie`s Fiesta did have hubcaps.
I think this sighting is a red herring. It is also interesting that people here have been saying that the hire car would have had a full tank. Therefore Sophie wouldn`t have needed to buy petrol. CCTV has her alone on arrival at the airport. She was alone in Schull on the Saturday. The passenger seat was back to the full in her car. This doesn`t mean she definitely had a tall passenger at some point. She could have let back the seat to put luggage on the floor in the front. If she did indeed buy a bag of firewood in Ballydehob, she could have placed it in front of the passenger seat. Her boot would have been full of luggage.
Definitely, that level of incompetence by AGS could hardly have been accidental.
I'm leaning against the "financial hit" motive but I completely agree that the apparent lack of evidence is synonymous with the idea of a perfect (and therefore planned) crime. My feeling though, is that it was unplanned. Perhaps a younger perpetrator, with no history?
Did MF say she noticed the man washing boots as opposed to shoes?, could she have possibly been even able to make that distinction?
A few things indicate that Sophie had a companion, not only at the petrol station.
While the Guards made it known they believed they knew Sophie's movements on the few days she was here, it seems obvious there is no evidence of her movements from about 4pm on Saturday to 3pm on Sun. 'As far as can be ascertained' by Michael 'the fantasist' Sheridan she was at home on Sat night. There are no phonecalls from the house during that time (in fact all day) and the presence of her car there wouldn't be proof of anything as she could have been picked up by somebody or have been dropped off by someone who was staying with her.
Earlier on Saturday ;
"Finbar Hellen and son Jon walked over to Toormore and saw Sophie's car
at the cottage. Finbar almost walked up to greet Sophie but did not.
However he anticipated she would come out to talk to them and did not,
which he registered as unusual to the extent that he told this detail to the police"
"Finbar (Hellen) and John pass by Sophie's house once again. Again Sophie does
not come out. Finbar saw Sophie's shadow in the house."
Then from RTE;
"Other sources suggest the telephone itself was found beside the bed. Sophie
was not in her usual 'raised' bed that night, from where she could see the
Fastnet lighthouse. She was sleeping in another room. One source
suggests this was for warmth as her boiler was believed to be out of action
and the normal bedroom was too cold."
Maybe she was sleeping in another room?
Two wine glasses, two chairs by the fire?
But that's just circumstantial evidence.
Sound bloke... great site , thanks for pointing it out..
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