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Freight rail in Ireland

SeanW

Hi all,

Anyone know how much (if any) freight still runs on IE? Also, I'd like to see and get some pics of the Bord Na Mona trains before all that winds down in December 2020 when the peat power plants close. Do those run to schedule?

Thanks in advance.

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Economics101

Closure of Dublin Port to rail container traffic is totally against all the efforts to reduce carbon emissions. If the Greens in Government are worth anything they simply have to insist that this crazy decision be reversed.

andrewfaulk

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Given the Irish Times just reported the link as severed this morning it seems that it hasn’t/ won’t be restarted.

Look at who main source in the article is and the pessimism makes sense

tabbey

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Given the Irish Times just reported the link as severed this morning it seems that it hasn’t/ won’t be restarted.

Do you mean that the track has been physically severed, or that the port company has merely prohibited it's use?

tabbey

Economics101 wrote: »

Closure of Dublin Port to rail container traffic is totally against all the efforts to reduce carbon emissions. If the Greens in Government are worth anything they simply have to insist that this crazy decision be reversed.

I don't know whether or not the minister for transport is the one who nominates directors to the Dublin port company, but certainly unless the board can clarify and correct the current debacle, the green party should take a stand on this issue.
Dismissal of the current board would send a message to the free loaders, not merely in the port company, but throughout the quango sector.

Economics101

We are told that carbon emissions are a serious issue, to the extent that new cars cannot be Diesel or Petrol powered after 2030. We also know that taking containers by rail from Ballina to Dublin uses a lot less (75%) fuel compared with road. Now if railways were electrified - a lot easier to do than electrifying cars - the saving in carbon emissions could be much greater still.
Now we have a Green transport minister. What use is he when it comes to curbing emissions? The Greens seem to have a fetish about cycling and walking as transport "solutions". It's about time they grew up and faced some real issues like substituting trucks for rail. Anyone who is canvassed by a Green should give them a hard time on this issue.

Del.Monte

Does Eamonn Ryan even know about what's going on in the port?

Edit: having now read the IT article I see that Ciaran 'Close the Waterford/Rosslare line' Cuffe is on the case that's the end of the matter.

donvito99

Do we know the percentage of containers/tonnage that this liner represents?

Del.Monte

donvito99 wrote: »

Do we know the percentage of containers/tonnage that this liner represents?

Why?

donvito99

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why?

Because if its fart-in-hurricane levels of goods, all of this is more trains for the sake of trains discussion that gives the Green Party an opportunity to make some headlines.

Economics101

donvito99 wrote: »

Because if its fart-in-hurricane levels of goods, all of this is more trains for the sake of trains discussion that gives the Green Party an opportunity to make some headlines.

I don't have an exact figure, but rail has a tiny fraction of the long-distance domestic freight market. Dublin port say that about 1% of containers use rail, even though we should not take them as gospel. But if the whole decarbonisation lark is to be taken seriously there will have to be big changes in freight haulage. For a start much more Lo-Lo containers rather than Ro-Ro road trucks. The containers are much more complimentary with rail and even a 5 percentage point increase in Ro-Ro market share could feed into a big increase in rail container traffic.
With all our obsession with Greenery, does anyone seem to care about this? Or should we call them the Greenway Party?

Del.Monte

https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/48596-irish-rail-disappointed-rail-freight-service-between-ballina-and-dublin-port-has-ceased-operating

Del.Monte

Today Dublin Port Company Head office is located in the heart of Dublin Port on Alexandra Road. Dublin Port Company is a self-financing, private limited company wholly-owned by the State, whose business is to manage Dublin Port, Ireland’s premier port. Established as a corporate entity in 1997, Dublin Port Company is responsible for the management, control, operation and development of the port. Dublin Port Company provides world-class facilities, services, accommodation and lands in the harbour for ships, goods and passengers.
You can learn more about the history of Dublin Port on our dedicated Archive website here: https://dublinportarchive.com/

Wholly owned by the State - so somebody needs a damn good kicking up the hole and then their P45.

Economics101 realistically our freight transport will be decarbonised by the introduction of electric * and hydrogen trucks.

* Given the relatively short distances travelled in Ireland, electric trucks will most likely make up the majority.

Even if you had a completely electrified rail network, which we don’t, you’d still need the trucks to be electrified for the last mile and because so much of our freight is just on time and not particularly suited to rail freight.

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

Economics101 realistically our freight transport will be decarbonised by the introduction of electric * and hydrogen trucks.

* Given the relatively short distances travelled in Ireland, electric trucks will most likely make up the majority.

Even if you had a completely electrified rail network, which we don’t, you’d still need the trucks to be electrified for the last mile and because so much of our freight is just on time and not particularly suited to rail freight.

Ah yes, the magical electrical trucks - self driving too no doubt. :rolleyes:

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ah yes, the magical electrical trucks - self driving too no doubt. :rolleyes:

You mean like the magical electrified rail network!

Electric trucks will be here long before a fully electrified rail network ever happens here. They are already starting to appear on the roads of mainland Europe.

I know much smaller scale, but I’m impressed that my local An Post and DPD delivery vans are now electric. And all my neighbours seem to be buying EV’s.

Electrification is coming fast.

Economics101

bk wrote: »

Economics101 realistically our freight transport will be decarbonised by the introduction of electric * and hydrogen trucks.

* Given the relatively short distances travelled in Ireland, electric trucks will most likely make up the majority.

Even if you had a completely electrified rail network, which we don’t, you’d still need the trucks to be electrified for the last mile and because so much of our freight is just on time and not particularly suited to rail freight.

Any proper carbon pricing (i.e.tax) should have a significant effect on the economics of road versus rail. Of course the rail share will not be very large for reasons that you state, but the margins will shift if the financial incentives are right.
A couple of years ago the road tax on HGVs was cut massively, and we still have the 2nd highest rail access charges in the EU (as far as I am aware). Come on, if we are half serious about reducing emissions rail has to be part of the solution, and electric rail at that. But for a start, get the road tax, carbon tax and rail access charges right.
And make Dublin port act in accordance with an urgent climate agenda.

Del.Monte

@ Economics101

You've answered your own question there, we - as in the Irish body politic - have no interest in the environment/global warming/cutting emissions etc. as there's not a buck to made out of it.

I agree we should have more carbon pricing. However that will just speed up the uptake of electric and hydrogen trucks. It wouldn’t fundamentally change the balance between road and rail freight. Not when all the rail freight is Diesel pulled anyway and would suffer (to a lesser extent) too from such carbon pricing.

Economics101

bk wrote: »

I agree we should have more carbon pricing. However that will just speed up the uptake of electric and hydrogen trucks. It wouldn’t fundamentally change the balance between road and rail freight. Not when all the rail freight is Diesel pulled anyway and would suffer (to a lesser extent) too from such carbon pricing.

Sure, carbon tax would hit rail as well as road, but the effect on road would be much, much greater. Carbon emissions per tonne/km are about 75% less even for Diesel Rail than for HGVs on routes like Ballina-Dublin or Waterford. If railways were electrified the emissions fall by as much as 90% (depends on how the electricity is generated). Some data here: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-emissions/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-9

The low road tax on HGVs and the high access charges for rail in Ireland are another factor in addition to the impact of serious carbon taxation. The present situation is quite ridiculous and totally at variance with the ambitions of the just -passed climate change act

Economics101 wrote: »

Sure, carbon tax would hit rail as well as road, but the effect on road would be much, much greater. Carbon emissions per tonne/km are about 75% less even for Diesel Rail than for HGVs on routes like Ballina-Dublin or Waterford. If railways were electrified the emissions fall by as much as 90% (depends on how the electricity is generated). Some data here: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-emissions/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-9

The thing is electrifying road freight will have an even greater effect.

Rail freight makes up just 1% of freight, so electrifying it will make almost no difference. But electrifying the 99% of freight which is on roads will have a VASTLY greater impact.

Electrifying the entire rail network will cost well north of 1 billion. But realistically how much impact will that actually give you? How much can rail freight realistically grow too, 5% yes, 10% maybe, much more then that, unlikely.

Road freight would continue the make up the vast majority of freight and would still need to be decarbonised.

In reality there are no plans to electrify most of the rail network, it isn't happening. Even if we did decide to do it, it would likely take 20 years and by then most trucks will be electric anyway.

Economics101

bk wrote: »

The thing is electrifying road freight will have an even greater effect.

In reality there are no plans to electrify most of the rail network, it isn't happening. Even if we did decide to do it, it would likely take 20 years and by then most trucks will be electric anyway.

What is exceptional is the sheer lack of rail electrification in Ireland. The UK is obviously more suited to electrification, but it too is somewhat of a laggard. I suggest you look at a really excellent study by the UK Railway Industry Association: https://www.riagb.org.uk/RIA/Newsroom/Publications%20Folder/Why_Rail_Electrification_Report.aspx
The use of batteries or hydrogen to power commercial vehicles, especially long-distance ones is not without problems as the RIA report shows. Anyhow if we don't electrify the (mainly passenger) railway what do we do? Use very problematic battery or hydrogen technology or the tried and trusted electrification route? Or do we give up and turn the railways into Greenways? That may sound ridiculous, but given the sheer lack of vision I can see us stumbling along thought an endless series of consultants' reports and eventually doing nothing.
The poorest country in Western Europe (Portugal) has electrified about 75% of its rail route mileage and 90% of traffic is electrically propelled. They are currently investing heavily in linking up container ports for rail haulage. Ireland's performance in this area is truly pathetic.

First of all Portugal's electrified rail is so relatively high as they closed most of their low use Diesel rail lines. They closed 790km of rail lines in the 80's to 90's and again another 500km between 2008 to 2013.

Today, their rail network covers just one third of the number of stations that existed prior to the closures of the last 40 years!

The idea being to focus investment where the demand actually exists, getting rid of underused lines. Ironic that you would point to them as an example of a country doing rail right!

In 2019 rail freight in Portugal has a 13% market share. Nice, better then us obviously, but still relatively minor in the greater scheme of things. And of course it is a very different market, connected into the Spanish rail network and mainland Europe and even as far as China!

Obviously a very different reality to a small island of the West coast of Europe.

The use of batteries or hydrogen to power commercial vehicles, especially long-distance ones is not without problems as the RIA report shows.

That is the problem rail freight has in Ireland, they are no long-distances in Ireland. We are a small island, three hours in any direction from Dublin and you are swimming and every city is a major port anyway. And hell 40% of our population lives in the GDA.

You'd find it hard to find a country for whom the fundamentals are less suited to rail freight.

The distances in Ireland are well within easy range for EV trucks, never mind hydrogen ones.

As for intercity, we will obviously need to wait for the next rail review. We might get some electrification, but I also wouldn't be surprised if we end up with EV/hydrogen intercity trains rather then full electrification.

The government seems to be focusing on Hydrogen. They are making big bets on hydrogen generation using excess wind power, so I wouldn't be surprised if government policy ends up pushing it for rail, freight, etc. Of course you could have hydrogen powered freight locos too.

Jamie2k9

Putting the sudden concern for the environment by TD, Councillors and Gricers, did IWT/Irish Rail raise the issue with political reps to become involved or just the spotters?

L1011

Has it actually resumed? Saw pics put up dated today but no way to know if those are actually from today.

Jamie2k9

Passed Sallypark at lunchtime and saw 18 flats. XPO going ahead or another test run?

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934536#Comment_117934536

No flats there at lunchtime, only left NW around 1500..

XPO due to start next weds

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934599#Comment_117934599

Yeah poor wording alright. Its my lunch and around 6. Leaving NW at 3 must have had a clear run.

Is it expected to run at regular freight slots out of Waterford 11.30 or 15.30?

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934669#Comment_117934669

11:30 on a Wednesday, so working against the 10:05 timber ex Ballina..

Down will be 11:05 ex Ballina on a Tuesday I think

sudocremegg

Empty flat train headed to Waterford Port this evening.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117461287#Comment_117461287

Bugger all media coverage - compared to the loads about it ending - but the IWT liner either resumed or never ended at all.