Immigrants live everywhere, or are you denying the obvious reality?
where people live depends 'mostly' on their income and family/friendship ties.
are you trying to suggest that an executive in a multinational company would end up living in Ballyfermot?
Immigrants have always predominantly moved to working class areas, the Irish in America being a classic example. Are you just denying obvious reality for the sake of entertaining yourself or what?
No need to be worried about headline Islam taking over, because As you yourself have experienced, there are Muslim majority countries were headline extreme Islam is not an issue.
If it's not an issue in Muslim countries, then we don't really need to worry about it taking over in western countries where Islam is not even a slight issue.
Quote :
It is more and more apparent from your posts, that you have a serious agenda. Seems very strange to me, if you actually have all these Muslim friends you say you have, or have lived in Muslim (not.strict islamic) countries. UnQuote,
And thats not an insinuation of beig a liar? and as for having an "agenda", yes I have. Its not moderate Islam you I and the World need to be worried about Bubblepop, its hardline Islam, and thats my agenda.
And now Bubblypop we're done.
I have never suggested you're a liar, what I cannot understand is why you seem to automatically go to the extreme, when you know if plenty moderate Muslims and have lived in Muslim countries that are not extreme strict islamic states?
You give the impression that Islam is.going to take over and turn us all into strict islamic countries. How many muslims do you think would need to live in Ireland to turn it into this Islamic state that you seem to think would happen?
Who will you ensure doesn't get here?
Lol!
immigrants live everywhere. Any reason why you think they only live in working class areas?
Did you read the part where I mentioned that Iran / Saudi as being the main sponser's of terrorism world wide, and that a lot depends on what is preached in the local Mosque, wherever its locacted? Hardline or moderate Islamic Countrys Bubblypop. even the UK or for that matter Ireland? The main issue here is not the actual Countrys, its the religion...hardline Islam.
Now, I take exception to your remarks about if I have a serious agenda, or if I actually have all these Muslim friends I claim to have, ( I have, and many , many more, in fact) or have lived in not strict muslim Countrys...would the Balkans be moderate enough for you Bubblypop? Bosnia? Pristina, Kosovo, Suncani Breg? Whose statue is on a plint outside the Galaxy Clinic? And the story behind it? Any other Countrys you want to discuss? Iran? Afghanistan? Syria? Sudan? Libya? there's more. You would be surprised how many Countrys you can cover in 24 years Bubblypop. as I have done, and how many friends you can make.
Insinuating that a poster is lying Bubblypop, is about as low as you can go. Questioning the veracity of my posts is not something that I would have expected from you Bubbly.. other posters, yes, but I thought you better than that, which is the main reason I engage with you. But question the veracity of my posts again, as you have just done, implying that I'm a liar, ( I'm not, but maybe your day to day job involves dealing with liars ) if it happens again, it will be the last discussion I want have with you.
It matters, If we ensure they don’t get here, we ensure their ideology doesn’t gain foundation and traction, nobody dies or gets convicted of anything.
Working class areas.
No, I will not be discounting the evidence of my own eyes on the advice of some randomer on a public discussion board, thanks. I know what myself and my neighbours have been on the receiving end of for well over a decade. The decline in our quality of life is all the more sickening for its denial and dismissal by others who are lucky not to be personally experiencing it.
And for any property owners who happen to be reading this from better-off areas along the Malahide dartline - some serious advice: if you are anywhere near your local dart station, sell your houses. The dart line is about to be extended beyond Malahide all the way to Drougheda, and when that happens what is currently a bi-monthly spree of savagery will be far more frequent, probably weekly. Your quality of life will be in the gutter, along with the value of your homes.
England has produced radical islamists. As has European countries.
So, why the big emphasis on strict islamic states, when you know, Muslim majority countries that are not extreme?
It is more and more apparent from your posts, that you have a serious agenda. Seems very strange to me, if you actually have all these Muslim friends you say you have, or have lived in Muslim (not.strict islamic) countries.
Yes, Bubblypop thats true. Because generally ( but not exclusively) its from the really hard line Islamic countrys we tend to get the hardline radical Islamists. But in even moderate Islamic countrys, a lot depends on what is taught in the Mosques. Its the actual teaching in the Mosques and Madrassas, where ever they are located, is the real problem. Saudi Arabia on one hand, is a big financial backer of both radical and moderate Sunni Islam , and its propagation world wide. Iran supports Shia Islam, with the same aim's...propagation world wide , including terrorism. But any Muslim Country or even a Muslim enclave in the EU, can and has produced radical islamists, as we know only too well. Even in present day Sarajevo, there are radical Islamists who stayed on after the war. And they have made big changes to the Moderate Islam that was the norm previously. Its increasingly becoming more and more hardline. So bad in fact that a Muslim friend from Sarajevo, has told me that he has relocated to Split.....he does not like what is happening there now.
Well I know all about crime, I see it everyday.
a gang of youths committing crime is nothing new. And seriously, forget about the rubbish of 100+ young fellas in one group. Doesn't happen.
And forget about the rubbish of 'walkie talkies'! Such rubbish 🙄
Go to a meeting with.your local community gardai and crime prevention officers for god sake and get the real story 🙄. Don't rely on clickbait from 'Dublin live '
and also, if the gardai need assistance in locating someone, they will ask for the public's assistance and give out a description. If they dont, rest assured they don't need your help.
My problem is routine violence and unfortunately for me I don't need to rely on a news source for it; I see it outside my front door.
Speaking of news sources, if the shoe was on the other foot and it was gangs of 100+ Irish lads storming through Balbriggan attacking African women and children it'd be all over the mainstream print media and the evening news, and rightly so.
Do you think native Irish communities deserve to be ignored when we are brutalised? If so, why?
Laughably, on the almost-never occasions these stories make their way into the pages of the Irish Times, the IT simply refuse to describe them! You tell me how a person is supposed to be identified if they are not described? And how the fook is it possible to describe three young men of African descent without mentioning that they are black?!
Dublin live website.
I see your problem right there
My views on multiculturalism in Ireland have been formed by living in north Dublin for nearly twenty years and witnessing the heartbreaking and frightening breakdown of society during that time. Communities scattered all across the northern half of this county have for years now been experiencing the spectacularly abusive behaviour of young African adults and teenagers, the first born generation of African economic migrants (AKA 'refugees')
The article below somehow miraculously made its way into the mainstream media. Scores and scores of similarly violent and repulsive incidents have been ignored for years. I personally know of them having happened regularly in Clontarf, Portmarnock and Malahide, not to mention the routine terrorising of residents in Balbriggan, Bettystown, Laytown and Dublin 15, where they themselves live.
The people I'm most angry with are their parents. How dare they let their children treat us like this when we took them in and gave them everything they have while our own people got on boats and planes to make their lives elsewhere because of the outrageous cost of rent and the chronic shortage of affordable and social housing in this country - housing that they themselves occupy in significant numbers on any north Dublin housing estate built in the last thirty years?
Don't anybody bother their arse telling me we have scrotes of our own. We do, we always have, but they do not and have never travelled in packs of up to one hundred wearing walky-talkies on their heads to coordinate the brutalisation of pregnant women and children. This is new behaviour, and it's the behaviour of spectacularly violent skum. In the article below a heavily pregnant woman was threatened in front of her five year old niece that her baby would be cut out of her belly and chopped up in front of her! If I thought my son was out behaving like that it wouldn't be the law he'd have to worry about; it'd be me.
Isn't it interesting to note too that when the offspring of African migrants decide to travel further afield on public transport for their smashing, battering and mugging sprees they exclusively target middle class areas? Not a coincidence, as is evidenced in the term they use to describe it - "posh bashing". There's nothing to be jealous of in Sheriff Street or Darndale I suppose.
How much longer do we have to be terrorised before the government acts? I suspect until the day these skumbags spend another twenty minutes on the train and make their way to Dublin 4.
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/gang-thug-threatens-cut-baby-15380313
If I were dismissing you jm, I wouldn’t actually be entertaining your opinions at all. That would be dismissing you, but I’m not doing that. What I am doing is when you make broad statements like Muslims bring their religion with them, I’m thinking “so what?”, because I don’t imagine all Muslims are the same, or that they all think the same, any more than I imagine all Irish people think the same or anything else.
With regards to what I do and don’t want for Irish society, I’d rather not live in a society which was more like the Islamic nations you describe where anyones freedoms were limited on the basis of their religious beliefs or none. I’m not going to live with them because I’m not that interested in getting to know them or anything else. I’ll treat anyone as my equal regardless of their beliefs. I’ll evaluate their ideas on that same basis - if it’s a silly idea, I don’t mind saying so, and frankly the idea that Ireland could go the way of France or Germany, well I’ve never been to those countries either so according to you I’m in no position to comment, but I will anyways - their societies are very different from Ireland where Catholicism still dominates every facet of Irish life and Islam doesn’t even get a look-in.
I don’t put any weight on Muslims living here, I’ve no doubt they’re very different people when they go home to their wives after we’ve been out for a few drinks and whatever, and I have no doubt the same can be said of anyone, even your mate who I don’t know if he describes himself as a “devout atheist” or you do, but it’s a fairly odd description in any case. To be fair to him it does appear as though he gave the idea quite a lot of thought, and went for it anyway. I’m fairly sure at the time he thought it was worth the risk, though I would advise anyone not to think of marriage in terms of bargaining and what they can get out of it. They have two beautiful daughters out of the marriage, he hasn’t done badly for himself at all. Question of perspective as to what he values more - his finances or his family. That’s entirely his own business however he chooses to see it, but it has little to do with his wife going full-on Muslim when there was a pair of them in the marriage.
I’ve already pointed out why I don’t place any greater value in your opinion than I do anyone else’s, yet you’re still acting as though I should. We don’t know each other jm and I don’t want to come and live with you. I’m not treating you any differently than anyone else who I would treat the same way. Earlier on in the thread I made the point that because you have experience of something doesn’t make you an authority on the matter (any more than me having a hip replacement means I know as much as the orthopaedic surgeon who performed the procedure and has never had a hip replacement), and it would be ridiculous if I claimed to be an expert on Islam when I have made it clear, numerous times already, that I know fcukall about Islam, and I don’t care to know much about it because for one thing I just can’t relate to anything I do know about it.
Think of it like the many Irish adults who were educated in Catholic schools and all it appears to have done for the most part is turned some of them into strident anti-theists who want to get Catholicism out of Catholic schools! I don’t know how that’s supposed to make any sense either tbh. ET schools have been established in Ireland for the last 50 years and they’ve yet to make a dint in Irish education. The establishment of one Islamic school is like an acorn falling on your head and being convinced the sky is falling. With immigrants effectively locked out of Catholic schools due to the sibling rule and having to enrol in ET schools where their children are exposed to a very liberal form of education, and the Dept of Education unwillingness to establish more schools if there are school places available for children, it’s hardly squeaky bum time just yet.
Jack,
Quote: The point you keep missing though, is that I’m not interested in multiculturalism in the Stans, I’m interested in discussing multiculturalism here in the West, more specifically in Ireland, and how it relates to Irish society. It’s obviously a different conversation you want to be having if you’re telling me I have to visit the Stans to experience Islam in the Stans for myself, but that’s never been my point.Unquote.
And my point is also relevant to multiculture especially the effect Islam is having and wlll have down the road here in Ireland. Other country's experience with Islam have not been good, as increasingly being seen ( France, England, Germany etc) Muslims bring their Religion when they move to another Country, they do not change. They cannot change, and still remain Muslims. Its a bit like the old Irish saying " If you want to know me, come and live with me" This was never more true than in the case of Islam. Don't put any weight on the Muslims living here, and how they act,,,travel to the Countrys they came from live with them, see how they live ( especially how non-muslims are treated, and I've seen it Jack. In Spade's!!! ) Ask your self is this what I want for my Country? Because Jack, Islam is and always has been in expansion mode, whether you agree with that or not, and having lived in several Islamic Countrya, both Shia / Sunni, for 24 years, and seen the best and the worst that Islam has to offer, I'm not a fan overall. You are in dismissal mode when anyone ( me or others ) raises the possibility that Islam could gain strong foot hold here, I'm a Fearmonger etc. But a question Jack, can you state positively that Islam will never,ever gain a foothold in this country? Thats not something I would not take a bet on.....like the Taliban often said, " The US have the watches, but we have the time"
And no Jack, I'm not interested in having a conversation with anyone, who just dismisses another poster opinions / viewpoints in terms of " Thats only your opinion, it's not relevent, its only hearsay, you are over egging the pudding" and other remarks in a similar vein etc, even when that opinion is backed up with 20 + years of experiece. Yet you, who have no actual experience of Islam, only what you have heard ( the definite "hearsay) talk about it like you are an expert? But one thing we can agree on Jack,is the amont you actully know about Islam would definitely fit on the back of a postage stamp.
But why the big emphasis on strict Islamic countries?
You know there are many Muslim countries that are not strict Islam, so why do you only ever refer to the extreme?
Muslims marrying non- muslims is forbidden in the Quran. And I have a friend ( From Denmark ) who fell in love with a beautifull Ethiopian lady. To do so, he had to go through the motions of converting to Islam, which he did, on the clear understanding that he was a devout atheist, and would never convert to any religion, which she accepted at the time, no problem, and they went on to have two beautifull daughters ( which were reared as Muslim's ) Fast forward 20 odd years, and wife's Islam kicks in. Husband has to become 100% full Muslim, the full Islam, pray 5 times a day, observe Ramadan fasting, no alcohol ( for a Dane???? ) or else marriage is over, Finito. And so it was. Now my friend, who is in his late 50's, and looking forward to retirement, and enjoying Family life is faced with either starting over again with a new partner, and as he says himself, its too late to have any more kids, He has a good relationship with his daughters though and thats something, but after supporting and financing the Family for 20+ odd years, he's definitely getting worst of the bargain. So for anyone thinking about marrying a Muslim Lady /Gentleman, think twice about it, it's good advice, if you are not a Muslim to begin with.
I was always curious about persons from the *stans marrying Europeans, like it's always men from *stans marrying European women and always it's the women that convert to the foreign religion rather than the men converting to the local religion.
Jm I can tell you right now I have no interest in any Islamic country, I hate flying for one thing, but for so many other reasons. I did go to Corfu once about 20 years back when two weeks holidays was the “done thing”, lovely island, nice people, but the whole experience wasn’t for me, I didn’t enjoy it at all.
That’s why I choose to remain here in Ireland, where I don’t imagine my knowledge of Islam will be any further increased, as long as there are no family occasions where I have to meet my sister and her husband. The husbands from one of the Stans, couldn’t tell you which one, but he has my sympathies 😂
The point you keep missing though, is that I’m not interested in multiculturalism in the Stans, I’m interested in discussing multiculturalism here in the West, more specifically in Ireland, and how it relates to Irish society. It’s obviously a different conversation you want to be having if you’re telling me I have to visit the Stans to experience Islam in the Stans for myself, but that’s never been my point.
I have no doubt that on their home turf Islam is a very different beast to the influence it has in Western society, which is effectively none, as it is by far overshadowed by the dominant culture, and even more so in Ireland where if I didn’t work with them or my son didn’t attend school with them, I’d likely have little interaction with people from the Stans at all.
You’re kinda like my mate from Uganda though, she’s Catholic, same as myself, and she used be “warning” me against allowing my son to play with the neighbours children who are Muslims, that they’d convert him and all the rest of it. That sort of fearmongering bothered me more than being concerned about any idea of my son being converted to Islam tbh. Wouldn’t matter if he was Catholic, Muslim, whatever else, as long as he treats people with respect regardless of their religious beliefs or none or whatever other funky ideas they have going on. He’s not compelled to participate any more than you can be compelled to continue a conversation when it’s clear you’d rather not.
Jack, when( and more importantly "IF" ) you decide to live for a few months or more in an Islamic Country, say Syria, Pakistan, or Afghanistan ( soon be open to tourism ( or maybe not......Ins'h Allah, but lots more of Stans out there to choose from ) and you have increased your understanding of Islam beyond what would fit on a postage stamp ( your words),and you but more weight on personal experience, rather then dismissing them as hearsay, or denigrating them to the status of "Just personal opinion " IE: worthless. Then we will continue this discussion.
No, that's not true.
peace negotiations went on involving all parties. Intelligence building and infiltration of terrorist groups was still also happening.
but those terrorists that murdered others, were still murderers. They were still dealt with by the justice system.
You can have these things simultaneously.
Northern Ireland wouldn't have peace if the conflict was viewed that way. Thatcher viewed it that way to some extent and it made it worse.
That’s generally how anyone is taught religion though, it’s an all-encompassing world view or philosophy or way of living, whatever terms suits yourself. It’s what underlies your belief that Islam is going to take over the West - the idea that because Muslims have more children than people in the West, they’re going to outnumber people in the West at some point on the far off future. It’s unlikely at any rate, but even their numbers won’t mean they will gain any political influence in Western society. At best they appear to be taking their sweet time mounting an offensive against Western democratic ideals, what with the length of time they’ve been in the West and all. Perhaps once they overcome the numerous barriers to their being seen as equals and not obstacles, they might have some hope of mounting some sort of a credible threat to Western democratic ideals.
In the meantime, the point I made was not in relation to what children are taught as children, but rather their abilities (or lack thereof) as adults, which is why I made a point of referring to the adult literacy rate in Afghanistan. Nothing so fancy at all as being proficient in European languages, just the basic stuff, because that’s how adult literacy is defined -
Definition: Adult literacy rate is the percentage of people ages 15 and above who can both read and write with understanding a short simple statement about their everyday life.
I'm only going to make one comment on your post Jack as I cant be bothered with the rest of your reply. How do Muslims learn about Islam, and to become Muslims? I'll let you into a little secret Jack, from a very early age, and I mean "early", they go to a muslim school, ( Local Mosque ) Jack, and learn all about Islam, reading, writing and studying Hadiths etc. Now that might not fit your definition of education, as the main subject taught is taken from the Quran, and its true that the majority of Afghans are unable to read or write English, French, German etc. But Pashto / Dari??? Different story. And as for Pakistan, its Urdu ( but there are several other languages spoken as well, depending on the region ) And as for learning from a very young age, google "Pakistani Madrassas". ( again it dedicated to the Quran, over western languages, but on the other hand, these madrassas have produced some of the finest Taliban ( Finest being subjective in this case ) that the world has ever seen.
The law abiding communities need laws to protect them from the none-law abiding citizenry......😀.
The disconnect between the Sinn Fein party and their elected representatives in the Republic and those who vote for them is hilarious when it comes to immigration. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
Sinn Fein in the North is probably a different story and they are probably closer aligned.
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