I understand what illegal means, thanks Wibbs 🙄
I also agree that it's not a good message to send out. However, the poster claimed that these illegals had previously been 'scheduled for removal'
I wanted to know where that information came from, is the poster aware of the history of these people?
And yes, employers should be prosecuted for using illegal immigrants. I would imagine their concern for their employees is very low on their priorities.
The term is illegal, not undocumented
Undocumented by definition means someone is in a country illegally. Either by staying after their legal residency period was up, or entering the country illegally in the first place. And that's the documented undocumented as it were. That figure is almost certainly higher in reality. Now of course there will be individuals with extenuating circumstances and that should be taken into acccount. As should those employers who have been paying such people "off the books". They're left out of this mess too often. They should be treated like fences in crimes of property, receivers of stolen goods as it were. However by rewarding illegality this country sends out a bad message to the world, never mind her own citizens.
So, where is that information then? That you're so sure about?
What is currently happening in the uk?
After generations of multiculturalism BLM protests are still required. After generations of multiculturalism which demographics are most likely to be poor, unemployed, under educated, or in gaol? Answers to the usual address..
Are you aware of the breakdown of nationalities of these 17000 people?
It matters little save for the obvious fact they're not from the EU. They're "undocumented", IE illegal migrants, living outside the law and taxes etc. And have been for years. Now they're to be rewarded for this
illegality with Irish residency? For the craic, try not paying taxes for a couple of years. See how you get on as an Irish citizen, or someone living here legally. I can guarantee you won't be rewarded.
I really don't like to use kumbaya phrases but what is true, is true: we are all human. The fight of ideals is the most futile, never ending, never fruitful game ever.
If it were only so simple that we're all human. As you note the fight of ideals born of culture, resources, belonging and not belonging is never ending. Rarely fruitful either.
I'm an optimist by nature, a realist by experience. The trick is to seek a balance between the two rooted in day to day realities.
Yes Bubblypop, this discussion has been hashed and re hashed several times, but the very fact that theres even one who should have been deported long ago, but is still here means that the system is not working. And Im sure that theres more than one.
Just because some posters make long winded, big words, essays doesn't make them right. Posters seem to be almost awestruck by long essays, which just repeat the same non issues over and over.
How many of the undocumented here were scheduled to be removed from this country?
are you aware of the circumstances of their presence in this country?
There is no such thing as open borders, except when it comes to EU migration.
Well, whats currently happening in the UK bears out what you are saying Iker. And I don't think that anyone has much of a problem with controlled emigration, especially where they fill needs, and become self sufficient, and integrate here in Ireland. But an openended form of migration is not a good thing, and we have a situation here presently where the Govt are about to fast track 17'000 "undocumented" migrants, some of whom were previously scheduled to be removed from the Country. Theres two very good posters here on this forum, Wibbs and Klaz ( Klaz is presently taking a well deserved break, but hopefully will be back soon) They were both very eloquent, making good constructive and coherent arguments. You can back up a bit in the time line, and you will come across some of their posts.
Douglas Murray shows quite calmly and clearly why Multiculturalism is a negative. He is a gay atheist aswell if that helps the wokists.
Video has almost 4 million views and 82,000 upvotes to 6,000 against which would show that this is not a fringe opinion.
Iker, I've lived in Muslim Countrys for the best part of 25 years, most of my friends are Muslims, Each and every day, I talk with some them. Share their family events etc. Some of these friendships go back the full 25 years, but even the newer ones, time wise, are good solid friendships,strange as it may seem. With one or two exceptions, ( where I was dissapointed when a so called friend did not live up to the name, wolf in sheeps clothing type situation. ) Here I'm speaking about the Man, the Muslim, and not the Muslim and his Religion, Islam. I have no qualms about the Muslim the Man, but I do have concerns about Islam the religion, about its spread and its barbaric practices. I think that its spread will bring sorrow to many, and not only in terror attacks, but look at the disruption its causing in say France ( but not limited to) at the moment. Plenty of Islamic no go ( for non-believers ) areas, where Islam rules in several EU cities. As a result, there's a growing push-back in Countrys which earlier on were welcoming to Muslims. Now why is that, do you think?. Could it be that Islam is not culturally compatible with the west. Do I fear an Islamic takeover in Ireland? No, I don't. Will my Grandchildren see a vastly greater Islamic input in Ireland? Yes, they will. And not only in Ireland, but the EU as well. As a force for change, Islam punches way above its weight.
But aside from that, Thanks anyway for your friendly advice, I know where you are coming from, and its not a bad place.
I disagree completely with you Dick,and all your above comments and conclusion's, and I'll leave it at that. Now, maybe, just maybe at some stage in your Life, you will take time out and travel a bit around the Islamic world, and when you have done that, you can get back to me then, OK ? and we can discuss. ( Apropos of nothing, maybe you might ask your Afghan Colleague, did he visit Butcher street, or the Finest Supermarket, and are they still operational? I'm just curious. 🤤) And his Family were right to think it funny at how he reacted to bombing and shooting etc.....Forget about the ones you can hear,,,they're gone, shrapnel / bullets etc travel faster than sound.
It would be irrational to change my views of a majority of any group of people based upon the behaviour of a minority of people who associate themselves with that group, as though they actually represent the views of the majority of that group. In reality it has always been the extremists who latch onto any ideology and corrupt it for their own ends. Rather than being radicalised by an ideology, they corrupt the ideology to suit themselves which in their minds justifies their abhorrent behaviour towards other people. It doesn’t matter what the ideology is, whether it’s Islam, Christianity, or whatever else.
I don’t believe for a minute that you actually think Muslims are compelled to commit atrocities because their religious texts tell them to, but there’s no doubt it’s certainly what you want everyone else to believe. The trouble with that idea is that people actually do know better, not only because of their own direct subjective experiences, but because they too have the opportunity to learn from a whole rake of different sources to inform themselves with a more objective perspective, rather than just taking what one person says as gospel.
I’ve mentioned him before in this thread but one of my co-workers is from Afghanistan, went back to Afghanistan recently after being away for ten years. He’d actually forgotten what it was like to be surrounded by gunfire and bombing and all the rest of it, that he was telling me when he used cower to avoid being killed, his family who were used to it were amused by his behaviour. For them it was a normal everyday experience.
The way you go on jm anyone could be forgiven for thinking all the men under 30 are primed Taliban extremists, when in reality the best you can do by way of an example of Muslim extremism in Ireland is that a group of Muslims violated lockdown restrictions to meet for prayer!
No disrespect jm but you’re over-egging the pudding just a tad when you’re trying to suggest things like parallel legal systems, people having to act in whatever manner because their religious texts compel them (in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary depending upon various scholars interpretations), and you appear to completely ignore evidence that it’s not religious beliefs which influence social policies, but politics.
It was a revolution some time in the 70’s which caused Iran to become the country it is now in an attempt to quell what was purported to be the influence of Western values on Islamic society, but all it was in reality, was just a fcuknugget rising to power (as happened recently in the US with Trump in an attempt to quell liberal democratic values, and look how that turned out!), but it would be wilful ignorance to imagine as you’re trying to suggest that it’s because Islam can’t change or Sharia can’t change that is the reason for the way Iran or any of the Stans are the way they are today (I’m going to have to consciously stop myself saying that the next time I’m referring to anyone from there because I’m a lazy prick who can’t remember all the stans! Cheers jm for that one 😂), when there are people still alive in those countries who remember when this is the way they were in the recent past, not 6,000 years ago -
To suggest that immigrants into Europe could ever achieve the same sort of thing without a similar revolution is just ridiculous, not even worth entertaining.
They’re really not interested in taking over Europe or anything else, they are for the most part only interested in escaping being killed in their own countries, while maintaining the values of their own people and keeping to themselves for the most part. Precisely because they’re acutely aware of how they are perceived in Europe - they know from their relatives and friends who live here already the good, the bad and the ugly points about the West, but it offers better opportunities and quality of life than their risk of staying in their countries of origin, just like there are lucrative opportunities and far better quality of life for Westerners in those countries if they’re willing to take the risk of making a life for themselves there, as many Westerners have done and still do without having first hand experience of these countries before they go over.
But Jim, you appear to be guided by the extreme.
you know countries and Muslims that are not extreme, not to mention experience of Muslims in this country. so why do you seem to just use your extreme experience to expect some kind of terrible outcome?
You have to let it go jm. The past cannot be changed, but the future, your own future can.
Your prejudice might be warranted in your view, but it only causes harm. Harm to yourself and potentially to other people who aren't related to the particular chain of events that led to your current views.
The only way to become wiser and better (and ultimately happier in yourself) is to fight your own (negative) views, not those of others. I would not approach a radical Muslim either. These are lost people. Lost in the obscenity of their views. But to jump the gun and pre-judge everyone you meet from a particular background because they may or may not be a radical is simply, unhealthy for yourself and only contributes to generating more hate and discontent in the world. Ironically, that's when you are at the biggest risk of becoming the very thing you despise. Think about that.
Ultimately, if you really can't deal with it, you should just avoid any and all contact with anyone associated in any way with Islam. Which in Ireland (if that's where you are) shouldn't be too difficult TBH. But a path of activism against an ideal or culture, will always invariably bring you sorrow.
Don't worry no one, no matter how determined, is taking over your society, country, or the world any time soon.
If only it was that easy...
Jack, I know what I saw and experienced over many years, and I'll be guided by that, as is my right. This in no way prevents you from having your own views on the subject, and I wish you well with them, and that you ( or anyone else on this forum ) never have cause to change them as I had.
Certainly not to the degree that they should all be tarred with the one brush though? That’s not only unreasonable, it’s completely irrational. I mean, all the major religions at least have a similar history of mass murder and mayhem, the same could be said of any ideology really, but I’m just not someone who blames sons for the sins of their fathers, and so I’m not given to the same sort of scaremongering that’s done of any particular groups in any society based upon their ideological affiliations which really doesn’t tell me a whole lot about them. It’s rather more individual than you’re trying to make out, because of their own individual interpretation of an ideology which they claim justifies their actions.
I wasn’t too concerned for example that after ten minutes searching for ham in the local convenience store, I asked the guy behind the counter do they stock ham… only for it to occur to me as soon as the words were out of my mouth that it’s unlikely they actually stock pork products of any description. A social faux pas, nothing more, and certainly nothing I imagined I was going to be shot for. Y’know, perspective like, rather than imagining the worst of people based upon whatever ideas you wish to associate with them based upon your own ideas!
Whereas I'm of the opinion that it may seem that way that you describe... but the more secular power fails to fix the world, the more people you have turning to religion.
Look at the US. Every other North American is now a self-declared "saved" bible basher of some denomination. And that has only gained momentum, not decreased, since the US started going to war as an economic model (2001). The EU is staunchly Catholic, Protestant and now also Orthodox, despite all the kumbaya taught in universities. And these religious organisations hold tremendous power. They are enmeshed in the fabric of Western civilization. Try cancelling Christmas if you don't believe me.
Religions are ideals. And you can't defeat ideals, not completely. Ideals, unlike people, never die. They may become unpopular, but they recycle themselves and come back. Like fascism, which is now on the rise, even thou we had this little incident because of it called WW2 which devastated much of the world. One Jesus of Nazareth was born 2021 years ago, and you still hear of the guy. Same with this other man called Mohamed. And so on and so forth.
You won't make a dent. Muslims will continue to be Muslims. Perhaps they will continue to believe that someday they will remake the world in their image. You will continue to dislike their religion. And neither of you will ever be right.
See? waste of time, energy, and talent.
If you are going to fight another for an ideal, dig two graves. If you are going to fight the ideal, dig just one for yourself. Either way, think of where you end up in that equation.
But at the end of the day Dick, its your own personal experiences that shapes your own personal perspectives.. and you don't normally have to worry too much about the majorities who do no harm, but the minorities , and especially followers of a religion that has proven track record when it comes to mass murder and mayhem...now they are worth worrying about.
I’m not sure if you realise it but the point I was making is that your relating your personal experiences to me is no different than the people I know relating their personal experiences to me or your flatmate explaining the intricacies of Islam or Sharia to you. I’d always prefer more objective sources than just anyone’s personal accounts of anything based upon their personal experiences from their perspective, because I understand that people’s accounts are often coloured by their own biases and beliefs and so on.
I’ve no doubt there are some utter fcuknuggets in any country among any population, especially among a population of 82m in Iran, 31m in Afghanistan, or 216m in Pakistan. In fact given those numbers, I’d suggest you were absolutely guaranteed to find a proportionate amount of fcuknuggets as you would in Ireland among a population of 7m. But to ascribe their fcuknuggetry to any particular ideology as though all adherents of that ideology are of the same or even similar mindset, is a stretch.
Not for a minute should you expect anyone to believe that sort of guilt by association as though it represents reality.
No government or power in the world can ever end the practice of any religion. It is simply impossible.
Education and secular laws and values will slowly push religion into fading out by itself. It takes decades and it cannot be enforced, but it will happen naturally and organically and we're seeing it happening in Europe. This is why I'm so against cultures where the religion is the law.
Hearsay.....thats where you get your info..My experiences were different, I can assure you!!! Up close and personal, in fact. One of the paperweights I have in my office is piece of shrapnel from a mortar that exploded in the street outside, I was lucky ( black cat 9 lives + lucky in fact ) Not so lucky the poor woman and her child that were walking on the footpath across the road. Trust me Dick,my experiences were far from hearsay. I saw upclose and personal Islams inhumanity...live and in full color. Which goes a long way to explain my position on it, especially the radical version.
Given the choice of Shah Resa, and his Savak secret police, and the present dictatorship, they would vote hands down for the return of the Shah. They are completely corrupt, and the big crime of some of the VICE officialls being caught in a brothel, was the fact that they were caught. In a way, it's easy to see how the Israeli's can penetrate their defenses, when they can bribe their way into everyhing..
Entertainment then, is that all?
Let me entertain you with some hard truths then.
It would lead to war and the disintegration of civilisation. Not because we need religion to organise ourselves, but because humans will never let go of it, regardless.
The best you can hope for is to substitute it with another set of ideals (see communism) and doesn't work either for any length of time. We always revert to religion.
You can't stop religion entering your geographical area, country, any more than you can stop ideas or people.
So, it seems like a pretty futile waste of energy what you are doing IMHO. But I hope you are at least enjoying yourself.
you seem to believe that all the billions of Muslims in the world come from 3rd world barbaric cultures?
I don't have any goal other than honest debate.
I'm generally anti 3rd world barbaric culture, especially against importin them into Europe. I don't discriminate islam, I oppose them all equally 😀
I don't understand what the goal is here.
Taking into account your expressed views, what would be an acceptable scenario for you?
Genuine question.
When ones total knowledge of anything comes from hearsay, the accounts of people’s experiences from their own perspective, also amounts to… well, hearsay!
That’s why I don’t doubt you when you say it’s the first time you’ve heard of the idea of 10,000 prostitutes in Tehran, and I have no doubt you were well behaved while you lived there so you’d be unlikely to be aware of such shenanigans in a city with a population of 10m people, but the idea of 10,000 prostitutes is itself likely a conservative estimate, even given the punishment for that kind of behaviour.
I was told alright about the whole three-day marriage thing, and to be fair to you I dismissed it initially because I thought they were winding me up. I thought “nah, only happens in Hollywood”. My friends too were a bit sketchy when I told them we used to do what were called “shotgun weddings” in Ireland, they thought that was an idea straight out of Hollywood, but purely because it peaked my curiosity, I did look up the whole idea they were talking about -
You and your flatmate must have had a good giggle when the chief of police was caught with his pants around his ankles? 😂
In 2008, General Reza Zarei, the Tehran police chief, was arrested in a brothel with six prostitutes. His arrest caused embarrassment for the government of President Ahmadinejad because Zarei was in charge of vice in Tehran. The prosecutor in the case remarked that Zarei exploited his office to profit materially from prostitution.
When Mohammad died, the first Muslim war began between those who believed that blood lineage was the way forward ( Shia Islim, with Ali Hussein, nephew of Mohammad, who was murdered / Martyred) versus those who believe that the leadership had to come from the writing of the Quran ( The Hadiths / Sunnahs, etc ) called Sunni Islam. To this day, that war continues, And if that was not bad enough, down through the years, further factions emerged IE Wahabbism, which has given us the most extreme form of Islam, beloved by isis, taliban etc. So yes there are many varients, but all have one thing in common, and thats the Quran. Each sect believes it has the one and only correct word of God version if you like. And interpret it accordingly. So the Sunnis intrepret it their way ( Wahabbism is from the Sunni version, and if we have not experienced it personally, then the whole world has heard of it, and seen it on TV. IE:- isis burning red suited men alive in cages etc. You have the Saudi Sunni's V Iranian Shia fightimg a proxy war in Yemen. At the edges, you have the Muslim contingents, who like their Catholic / Christian brethren have a very relaxed if indeed any interest in Religion at all. But at the core of each version, you will find people with very hard line views. These are the ones who have no problem whatsoever putting on a suicide vest , entering a crowd of people and killing / maiming hundreds of people, or knifing or driving vehicles into a crowd of innocent people.
Snore.
every post from you is just anti islam.
you don't even seem to understand that 1.8billion Muslims in the world are not identical.
How do you feel about other non Muslims living here?
But so what?
what does it matter?
you seem to think that the reason some Muslims would break our laws is more important than the reasons other non Muslims would break the law. why do you think it matters?
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