Ahmaddiya Muslims aren’t REAL Muslims
If you say so. Also, they are below 0.1% of the muslims in Ireland (or in the world)
After all, all the Abrahimic religions are essentially singing from their own interpretations of the same hymn sheet
True, they are all bad. Also, some are worse than others, some were reformed by stories of a good carpenter that contrasted the ruthless god from the original sheet, some others were reformed by stories of a pedophile warmonger that claims that he is the last prophet...
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@jmreire I understand what Islam is, and how it works, and how Sharia Law works and all the rest of it, but given for example in Tehran alone there are over 10,000 prostitutes. UnQuote.
Having lived and worked in Iran myself, I can safely say that this is the very first time that I've heard of their being 10'000 prostitutes working in Teheran...But I can tell you that they have very active Religious Police department, with extremely harsh penalties. ( and this aside from the fact that they are a very conservative race of people, even without the current religious dictatorship. But what does happen there,is given the extremely hard life many endure, many will "Marry" in the evening, and divorce the following morning, which is all legal and above board, under Sharia Law....But this is a last option, taken by women who have no other choice, its that bad there. Maybe one of you friends happened to mention the penalty for Adultery Jack? Its Stoning, and Iran practices a brutal form of Islam. So 10'000 Prostitutes???? I doubt it very much.
Quote :- I’d hope @jmreire wasn’t asking me the question as though he thought a couple of years spent in Islamic countries makes him an authority on the subject of Islam or Sharia Law.: UnQuote.
I've never claimed to be an authority on Sharia Law, Dick. ( although at one time I shared an apartment with professor of Islamic Jurisprudence , and he did explain a few things to me, which made me a bit more understanding of the Religion) None the less, when your total knowledge of any subject comes from hearsay, versus from some one who has actual personal lived experience, the one with the personal experience will win hands down, every time.
Tbh jm the whole religion thing just doesn’t come up that often, and when it does, their interpretations of the word of God are as individual as your own, so to speak.
I mean, if you’re going to make all sorts of assertions with the expectation that they should be taken seriously, I wonder what you’d make of the “unholy alliance” as it were between people representing Ahmaddiyya Muslims, Evangelicals and atheists in Ireland?
I know, I know, “Ahmaddiya Muslims aren’t REAL Muslims”, but you have to admit, it doesn’t bode well for your idea that Muslims are compelled to do shìt. After all, all the Abrahimic religions are essentially singing from their own interpretations of the same hymn sheet, that they all say is the word of God.
Turns out each sect or denomination doesn’t actually practice what they preach, but rather defer to what suits their purposes and reinterpret their beliefs around that idea. Neither Islam nor Sharia are unique in the respect that they are ideas which are easily reinterpreted and corrupted by people to support and promote their own ideas whenever it suits them.
Ahh jm, seriously, as an example of Muslims being compelled to do something by virtue of their adherence to their particular sect of Islam, and whatever that may be… the example you’re giving is weak as dishwater, almost to the point of being facetious! I did look up the example and even Dublin Live couldn’t make a “thing” of it -
The Croke Park "Gig" was fully legal, well planned and organised, and well paid for too. (I wonder whats the going rate to hire Croke Park for a day. and who paid for it? Just guessing here, but some Saudi benefactor ( propagation of the faith financial department maybe? Anyway.. ) The lawbreaking incident I refer to was during the Covid Lockdown when any kind of visiting/ movement's etc, were banned. 130 Muslims attended a Ramadan service in Blackpitts Moque. And for sure, Blackpitts Mosque was not the only one. So its one case of a religious Law over riding National Law.
I make the distinction of practicing Muslims Jack. And the difference between Irish breaking the lockdown laws, and Muslims, is that for the Muslims it was a directive, and not just happen stance. And again Dick, with practising Muslims, they take the written Quran and Sharia literally...and 100 % seriously, as the Word of God. But I'm sure that all of this will have been fully explained to you by your friends???
The difference for Muslims breaking Irish Laws, and "our own" breaking them, is for Muslims, its a religious imperative. This is not any "accidental" law breaking ( or for financial gain as is the main reason for "our own" lawbreaking / criminal classes ) Its a very deliberate snubbing of Irish laws, in favour of a religious law. And thats the big difference Bubblypop.
But sure lots of people break the law.
I don't know why you think that Muslims doing it is any different to anyone else doing it?
Sure Bubblypop, when it comes to lawbreaking we have more than enougn of our "own". I used the example of Muslims breaking our Lockdown Laws, to illustrate when push comes to shove, Practising Muslims will always obey their Islamic Law. They cannot do otherwise. And I'm pretty sure that Blackpitts Mosque was not the only one either.
Well, when asked what cultures or countries you refer to, you don't answer.
So all I can presume is that you think all Muslims live together in one country 🙄
No utopian version of anything has ever been obtained, anywhere. If it were, it would cease to be utopian. The utopian version of a homogenous society hasn't been achieved neither. Nor will it ever be. The closest you might find is North Korea, now if you want to call that a success story. That some countries in Asia or Middle East may approach a perceived homogeneity is a total fallacy. That is just a perception in the West because, to the profile of person usually making that assessment, most Asians look the same.
Multiculturalism can and does work, for some people in certain situations. Not for everyone. Which again, is saying nothing. It is an impossible question, like looking at a constantly changing kaleidoscope and asking, what color is it now?
There will always be specific times, peoples, and situations in which it will work and not others.
However, the idea that somehow in a developed country (which Ireland is now considered to be, go figure...) you are going to get rid of all the immigrants, is nothing short of delusional.
Even in the Celtic Tiger years, Ireland had and continues to have a small and manageable proportion of migrants, compared to the rest of Europe. Even those most different to our traditional culture (e.g. Muslims, Buddhists, non-Christian Africans, etc...) are largely respectful of Irish traditions and culture even if they don't partake. Most immigrants don't want any trouble. They leave their countries to make a better living, help their families and escape poverty or other bad situations. Generally, you don't uproot yourself from your country (where no one points a finger at you) and go to some other place and put up with the ignorance of others, just to act the maggot and make a bollix of it.
Goodness sake, you’re still missing the point that anyone living there could make exactly the same point as you’re doing, because what you have is an opinion, which isn’t supported by facts any more than their opinion would be!
I honestly don’t know how both yourself and jm can be so oblivious to the fact that in their countries, YE were the bloody immigrant foreigners with ye’re liberal western values coming to corrupt Islamic society and would ye ever feck off back home to ye’re own country! 😳
You don't want me to make a list of countries, do you?
Then where?
You keep referring to some place but say where?
It appears you think all Muslims live in the same country, all acting exactly the same 🙄
Yes, but the fact the life quality is better here is not a matter of perspective. It is the objective truth, and it is supported by facts, including the fact they are coming here in droves and not the other way around. And the life is better here because people living here made it so.
I didn’t say anything about one culture being just as bad, or anything else, as another culture. I’m saying that regardless of whatever country it is, you’ll find plenty to complain about and point fingers at and tell yourself you’re superior to them, and people from that other culture are no doubt doing the same thing as you are, only from their perspective.
jm would you be so kind as to clarify what you’re referring to, because while I’m aware of the celebration of Eid in Croke Park, that can’t be what you’re referring to as no laws were broken, and it was an event organised between the GAA and the Irish Muslim Peace and Intergration Council, outside, maintaining social distancing measures for health and safety reasons. Meanwhile, in other areas around the country, people are violating lockdown restrictions and partying like it’s 1999, including some of our foremost political leaders who act as though they are a law unto themselves 🤔
And no jm, that STILL doesn’t mean there are two, or even three, or as many individual legal systems as suits individuals themselves in this country, or in any country for that matter. It’s kinda like the way you speak of practicing Muslims and the way they behave as though they adhere to the literal word of God… I think you’ll find Muslims, like Christians and Jews, will interpret the word of God as suits their purposes.
You keep repeating this but for what?
D/Garda Colm Horkans funeral was attended by a lot more then 130 people. There were, I don't know how many, traveller funerals and weddings over lockdown.
you seem to think it was only Muslims that broke lockdown?
as I pointed it to you, there are many minorities in this country that have their own 'justice' system.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter one jot, because everyone is subject to the laws of the land.
Much better then where?
Nope Bubblypop. I never said that Ireland will be converted to Islam ( or any other Country either) What I have said however is that since Mohammads time,back in the 6th century, the whole thrust of Islam has been to spread and to convert the whole world, and in the intervening years, this process has ebbed and flowed. In Europe at the present time, there are Muslim enclaves where the Quran and Sharia Law are the ones actively obeyed and followed. Even if the national laws apply to everyone.The recent episode in Dublin when some 130 Muslims disobeyed the nation lockdown law in favour of obeying the Islamic Ramadan Law, is a case in point. Two different legal systems in the one Country. Ive said it before, but no harm in repeating it, " when it comes to Islam, for a practising Muslim, the Quran and Sharia Law takes precedent over any man made laws, because the Quran is the actual word of God.
@One eyed Jack if our culture is just as bad, or their culture is not that bad, then why is this country much better?
So, no answer then 🙄
Theirs 😁
No Cordell it isn’t their culture. What you’re doing is cherry picking examples which suit your narrative, and MY point is that anyone can do that, and present a particular narrative depending upon their perspective which supports their beliefs that they want other people to believe.
That’s why I gave the example of prostitution and pointed out the similarities between both societies - the one in which you claim women are free, and the one in which you try to make out women aren’t free, it’s as though you have a blind spot in relation to the society in which you live, whereas you imagine the shìtty behaviour of other people you witness in other countries you’re willing to ascribe to an ideology that you’re opposed to that doesn’t exist in the West.
It doesn’t have to, in order for me to cherry pick examples of similar behaviour, and that’s why I made the point about if Rory O’ Neill were to be believed as though he’s an authority on Irish society, he’d have anyone believe Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because someone threw a milk carton at him once. I could go further like you do with your example of gay men hanging from cranes as if that’s actually a regular occurrence in those countries and point to similar occurrences here in Ireland where gay men are the victims of assault and and in rare cases murdered too (and other examples given in the article below) -
I don’t believe people from Islamic countries are all of a similar mindset any more than I believe people in Western society are of a similar mindset, not only because it would be a ridiculous assumption to make in the first place, but because I could pick anecdotes all day which would support any particular point of view.
I’d hope @jmreire wasn’t asking me the question as though he thought a couple of years spent in Islamic countries makes him an authority on the subject of Islam or Sharia Law, any more than I’d imagine you’re an authority on the subject, or any more than I’d imagine the Islamic equivalent of Rory O’ Neill is an authority on the subject based upon his perspective and experiences.
I'm sure you're probably one of the only ones on the site that has experience living in a strict Islamic state Jim, and everyone understands your experience there.
However, you seem to be of the belief that somehow the Muslims are going to take over our little island and turn it Islamic.
It's not going to happen.
Whose culture is it?
Yes, exactly my point, they are getting filthy rich and eat gold plated ice cream and all while workers from countries like India are working in slavery. This is their culture.
I know right, for some people a country where you can eat gold-flecked ice cream, is still a hellhole! It’s bizarre really, isn’t it?
@One eyed Jack yes you are right, "hellholes of one variety or another is really only dependent upon one’s perspective" for some people countries where women are free and gays are not swinging from a crane are hellholes.
No experience whatsoever of having lived in Islamic countries jm tbh, and my experience of Islam is limited to the few friends, neighbours, work colleagues and relatives I’d interact with on and off, y’know?
It’s why I wouldn’t judge a population of 2Bn people by the standards of a mere handful, any more than I’d judge all Irish people by the standards of a mere handful. Rory O’ Neill would have anyone believe Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because someone threw a milk carton thrown at him once.
@Cordell I have no issue whatsoever with believing that the people who are trying to escape these countries and the people who live in these countries are pretty much the same people, and not all that different from people in Ireland who, depending upon your perspective and experience, are a bit of a mixed bag and all.
@jmreire I understand what Islam is, and how it works, and how Sharia Law works and all the rest of it, but given for example in Tehran alone there are over 10,000 prostitutes, I’d imagine they’re not all that different from Berlin with it’s mega-brothels packed to the rafters with immigrants, or the young male immigrants who prostitute themselves in public parks, or the immigrant children who are forced to prostitute themselves on the Czech border with their German neighbours.
@Cordell prostitution is legal in Finland too (the ‘Nordic model’, not the same as the Nordic model in the context of economics), and is primarily propagated by immigrants, so the idea of countries being hellholes of one variety or another is really only dependent upon one’s perspective.
I gather most people in either Western or Islamic countries aren’t driving around in BMWs, that for the most part they really aren’t that well-off, and it’s as though a separate set of rules applies to the super-wealthy? Not all that different at all then, are they?
100% right, and in a large part its because they do not understand what Islam actually is or how it works. Thats why I asked Jack where he got his knowledge of Islam / Sharia Law.
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