On RTE One now...
Having late night drinks with a couple in their bedroom....Seems to be doing more damage to his reputation than anything imo....
This is something I never knew....
"At 1.40am, Richard Flynn’s son David and his wife Ann arrived, having driven from their own home in Tober, Co Offaly. A local doctor arrived at 2am. He confirmed the priest was dead"
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40695221.html
It must have being part of a big estate in that area that the land commission took it over and divided by them,they may have been continuing payment due to the land commission that they wouldn't allow part disposal.
There is no evidence to say that Fr Molloy 'lost the head' - remember he did not fight back. I would think he set out how he felt about the situation and that he wanted the money back. Its the Flynns and whoever else was there that 'lost their heads'.
Presume being in a small rural parish allowed him to spend half the week in Kilcoursey with the horses ? That might have been the attraction + fact he was from outside Roscommon town.
Possibly but he doesn't seem to have been the type to lose his head.
Still wonder about the decision that lead to a well-connected and independently wealthy priest ending up in a small rural parish in Roscommon, his doubts over his vocation and his planned leaving the priesthood.
maybe he felt even more cheated watching them splash out big on a wedding when he was trying to get repaid.
The sale of any farmland had to be approved by the Land Commission up to 1999 when it was abolished. The deposit was I think 50% of the overall sale price. As I read the reports the deposit was £24,000 and Niall Molloy & Theresa Flynn (who traded land and horses) were buying the land from Richard Flynn. As it was the marital home in theory the home and land was owned by both Flynns. I think Molloy must have been presented with some story to agree to such a high deposit. In the mid 1970s was an acre of land worth at best £1,000 ? Now £400,000 in the mid 1970s is perhaps €2 million now but Kilcoursey was a very large house, with very heavy running costs and if the various businesses lost money you can see how they could have run down their net worth. If land back then was only £500 or £750 an acre the point just made stands even more.
From what i read Fr Molloy knew about the land commission possible veto.
It was a massive deposit to give when there was this probable problem and if he received advice on this then it was very dodgy
The question would be was the land commission probable problem kept from fr Molloy so that a larger money deposit could be secured on the land sale on the pretence of a straight forward sale going forward...it would've been madness to purchase land with this type of incumbrance.... maybe the Flynn's may have sold that land well before this on the open market if they had been able to but owing to LC clause..they couldn't.....as both Richard and Therese were both from Galway...how come they had a 400 acre farm in tubber co Offaly/Westmeath...did they purchase that.
hile Flynns owned the land the LC had a say in whether it was possible to split the holding or not. The LC refused so the sale could not proceed. It was not uncommon for solicitors to work for multiple clients in a transaction at the time it was allowed there has been huge changes since. Richard Flynn needed money his business's were in trouble. You have to look at the fact he came from a large land owning family (400 acres) which he had sold in the 70's and it had flitted away over 10 odd years it seems. From the look of it he was not hand on with his various motor accessory shops. Fr Molloy had walked in eyes closed to a family that spend big but who's finances were in a mess. He probably did not know the extent of the financial problems of the Flynn family. He more than likly had been spun a story that the money was for investment not for what looks like day to day spending. When the land could not be transferred to him he required his money back. For the Flynn's, if Fr Molloy went to court to recover his money there would be a judgment against them. That would bring the tower tumbling down and other debtors would line up fast.
I would still like to know if the investigating team brought the Flynns son in for questioning on foot of his very public statement that he was witholding evidence that he knew in relation to a murder?
The wedding was over and i am sure that it was the lavish spending given to Christy Maye and the big marqee owners etc that brought it to the fore that night.
I think a lot of people think that this happened on the wedding night
What a silly occasion to approach someone about a debt, if that’s what happened.
The tagline for this case is that it involves a cover up that would rock the state to its very foundations, if it became known.
Yet, to me it looks more like incompetence being somehow spun as a multi layer conspiracy.
There are two pieces of incompetence that stand out.
1 - The half arsed Garda investigation. We have the culprit, we have a confession, why bother our holes interviewing dozens of people who seemingly weren't even there at the time.
2 - A generous judge being overly favourable to someone of his own social status and bringing down the hammer as soon as it could be explained a bit of aggro over G+Ts between gentlemen.
It's worth remembering that even if a different killer was put up for trial, the weak heart defence would still have been put before the judge.
That's a extraordinary deposit you'd think without a ounce of title...did the Flynn's not fully own that land outright as the land commission was involved...the Flynn family solicitor who seemed to be the "partnership" solicitor as well doesn't seem have searched the land title very well to allow for such a large sum of money to transfer to the Flynn bank account knowing full sale might not be able to be completed because of land commission kind of stipulation in the land deeds
Of all the people that night i think Fr Molloy would have taken the least drink.
He was not at the wedding the day before and apparently after passing himself to the guests he took out a horse and trap for a spin.
This says to me he had no interest in the party and was waiting until the guests left to confront the Flynns about his money and this lead to a violent argument
I dont think there was any bribery with Judge Roe but maybe he knew the Flynns so well and knew the backgound to the horse and land dealings
He did go to extradordinary lenghts and career risks though to aquit but it seems that when he got the out with McAtees heart attack defence he grabbed it,could Roe have been involved in some of the dealings?
I think the truth is a bit simpler about that night that it happend close to what the Flynns said but turned violent over the money and if anyone else was there it was close family members of the Flynns and it is possible that the assaults was carried out by these members or with RF.
The priest and the Doctors actions that night was a disgracful cover up and led to the real truth to be never discovered
I am not sure where people get the 12 k from. Dr Molloy paid a 24k deposit for the land he was going buying off the Flynn's. The total deposit was released to Richard Flynn.
On the value of the money. A good years wages would be 10-12k the equivalent to a 50-60k wage now. A house back then worth 25k would be worth 175-200 k now. In a time where access to money was restricted, the 24k was probably nearer to 120&160k.
As well that was only the tip of the money involved. For Molly had other land and horses with Theressa Flynn. In today's terms they may have been a 250k in play
Tend to believe the ex DPP rather than gangland criminals and journalists re the alleged Frank Roe letter. If the file was stolen and that letter was in it why was it not photocopied and leaked ? It also seems by 1985 that the Flynns were ' all fur coat and no knickers.' No one was bribed. Aside from whether anyone was amenable to being bribed (which we can come back to) there doesn't seem to have been any money to bribe anyone. If the Flynns had money why not just re-pay the £12,000 they owed Fr Molloy. Kilcoursey house was sold in 1991 and as I understand it the sale was delayed by several years because of litigation brought by the Molloys. The Flynn's first tried to put Kilcoursey on the market in 1986/ 1987.
In the history of the state have gardai, judges and witnesses been bribed- I am sure they have. But in relation to the first 2 groups suggest it is likely far, far less common than people like to think. The Flynns were not really known to Clara Gardai. Whilst by the standards of 2021 the 1985 investigation may not look good any failings were because they could not do any better rather than because they had been paid to mess it up. Remember from the start when queried by the parish priest, if something could be 'done', the answer was effectively no- it had to be investigated.
If there was some cover up of the type some seem to believe its rather bizarre- 'lets charge Flynn only and we'll get him up in front of a 'tame' judge who will let him off after a defence application.' The more people you involve in a process like that the harder it is to control and guarantee. Would it not have been simpler in an era where CCTV was really rather uncommon and mobile phones did not really exist for 99.99% of population- let alone phones with cameras- to suggest I don't know ' sadly Fr Flynn who had been much enjoying the wedding festivities was found after what looks like a particularly bad fall down the long flight of stairs at Kilcoursey house.' The reality is this was not done because the Flynns had no unusual pull. More of those involved in the process after the death who were employed by the state were basically really rather honest than dishonest-people like to think otherwise but that seems to be the position.
At the time of the wedding Fr Molloy was owed what must be about €40,000 in 2021 values. He turns up at the wedding. For now I accept that a Flynn Grandson was born in December and therefore the wedding was arranged with a degree of speed. Now the December baby may be another tall tale like the DPP being a god father of one of the Flynn children- but for now accept it. Perhaps there was coverage in 1986/1987 that went into some detail about Richard Flynn recently becoming a grandfather ? Allowing for all the myths about this case it would be helpful if someone backed up that point.
In any event for whatever reason even though he lived much of the month at Kilcoursey house- Fr Molloy was not initimate to all of the plans that Therese and her daughter made. He turns up and realises that his €40,000 had gone on Marquee hire and to the Bridge House Hotel etc, etc. He brings it up with Richard and or Therese - either once or twice. Does anyone know how far into 3 figures the wedding attendance went ? Take it there were at least 200 there ? But anyone know the exact number.
Anyway Molloy either brings up money once with Richard and is hit and then goes up to his room. (I presume in the mid 1980s most priests were not habitually punched but the coroners report said (afaik) that Molloy was over the drink drive limit but only slightly and not particularly intoxicated. But he could still not drive his car. Maybe drink drive laws in the country were not much observed by non priests in 1980s - but lets take it that a priest would be more adherent to such laws ? ) He likely intends to go home in the morning.
Therese follows him up to ask him not to get Richard in trouble/ to try and forget about the punch or two. He tells her no and says something that makes Therese realise that their perceived wealth and status will fall apart and she then becomes hysterical. Hearing Therese become very distressed at (say) Fr Molloy confirming that he was going to lodge court proceedings for £12,000 (and who knows perhaps other money) another member of the wedding party (perhaps not Richard) goes to Therese's aid. Their input to the discussion is to batter Fr. Molloy.
In another possible scenario Therese and Richard are in the same room and Therese does not then follow Molloy but much the same thing happens with perhaps a 4th person joining the discussion.
A judge's tip staff/ usher often has a very significant insight into a judge's life. Roe's usher was alive in 2014 and in his remarks to Gardai in reports that were fed into McGinn's report tends to suggest that Roe knew none of the parties. The previous point about unconscious bias however is very apt. A circuit court judge who retired in the last decade was always told in exhaustive detail about all the sporting interests and activities of middle class defendants in criminal cases. He was generally seen as softer on such people with sentences compared to working class defendants. Did he take bribes ? No. Was he an unpleasant man ? No. Did he have certain biases and prejudices in terms of his general outlook in life ? Yes and that led him to treat middle class people especially those active in sport more leniently
I dont know for sure if the Flynns were FF supporters,just because Brian Lenihan was at the wedding as there would have been a personal(flynns and lenihans wife) rather than a poitical relationship there and the Lenihans from Athlone where the Flynns had a buissness.
I think Judge Roe was more into the sporting horse like showjumpers and hunters like Mrs Flynn and Fr Molloy where as the judges son was the thoroughbred person as a jockey.
I assumed the judge wrote the letter at the time as someone who seemed comfortable in the knowledge that the DPP would pass no remarks in that the judge knew the Flynns and that Roe was almost vouching for their good character in his letter.
Of course this is all speculation on my behalf and they are probably way off.
The biggest indication of the sort of cover up ireland we lived in at that time was the priest asking the local guard when he arrived was if there was some way "we could cover this up",while a fellow priest was lying on the floor with horrific injuries that he said he didnt know was alive or dead
What is truly known about the Roe to Flynn connection? There is an alleged letter he sent to DPP pre-trial saying that he personally knew them. If he highlighted this as described, then it would be bizarre that he presided over the trial. If he was part of a trial rigging conspiracy, then why try to blow the whistle on himself?
Frequently it is speculated that Richard Flynn walked free because of; Fianna Fail links, the 'horsey set' and his wealth. None of these were much help with the judge who was; a Fine Gaeler, a horse racing man not a showjumping man, and Flynn was nearly broke.
There simpler explanation is unconscious bias. The judge saw a man in the dock of similar status to himself and felt less inclined to treat him like a common criminal. Had the same type of incident taken place in Dublin's inner city involving friends and drug debt, I'd expect Roe would have sent the culprit down.
Just to try to deal with a few points in some of the recent posts. The sum of money that Fr. Molloy was due back was £12,000 not £24,000. Molloy and Therese Flynn had agreed to buy land which was part of the Kilcoursey House estate from Richard Flynn. Flynn's business had cash flow problems. (Strictly was Therese Flynn not buying something from her husband she already partly owed ?) I am not sure how many people were at the wedding but the McGinn report says something like the only politicians at the wedding were Brian Lenihan and a member of the Fianna Fail National Executive. Lenihan was there as his wife had been in university with Therese Flynn. They were long standing friends but perhaps the closeness had been over stated. When the Lenihan's lived in Athlone they had dinner once a year with the Flynns who were about 15 miles away. I know nothing of the Parkes political clout at the time. Lalababa - you suggest the thrust of the story is known as to how the priest died but the explanation for the row is untrue. I don't think anyone believes the account of the row over Richard Flynn not getting drinks for his wife and friend causing a row. I think its harder to understand why many think there was someone else involved in the fight. Most will read the account of Richard Flynn at 2-3 am and after and feel that he was prenaturally calm. It is easy to 'read' this as a sense of resignation that it was his duty to cover for someone else. Multiple media reports post 1991 when Therese Flynn died refer to a belief in the Midlands that Richard Flynn was not the murderer and the murderer was still alive. Exactly why local views fell in this way ?
The moves made by the flynns after Fr Molloys death seem unbelievably money orientated when they should have been keeping their heads down.
The murder and their hand in it with all the resultant publicity did not seem to alter their course at all
Trying to claim his small insurance with false information.The hiding of his personal property and selling off of horses and then claiming there was no money after vets fees etc.The claims that they had actually given him back his deposit in cash from the safe with no receipt all after his death and changing storys on how this was done and no cash was ever accounted for
Judge Roe was big into his horses who had a son who was champion jockey in ireland and good friends with the flynns,i wonder was he at the wedding?
Did the investigating team bring Flynns son in for questioning when he very publically revealed that he had information on the case that no one else knew,surely this witholding of information in a criminal case is an offence?
Guess.....:The flynns owed Molloy money. Molly was looking for his money. An argument ensued. The husband gave Molloy a good belt in the head , stunning him. He followed up with 3/4 more , eventually leading to his death.
The husbands hand was severely bruised with some account of it being broken.
The husband said it was this hand that killed molloy.
The typical Irish thing was done then.
Yearra ..twas spur of the moment.....he didn't mean it....he's a good character....highly respected...no need to ruin two peoples lives...etc. Tis like the guy killing 3 people drunk driving and getting a suspended sentence.
The heart being not the best gave the judge a way out for Flynn.
Unfortunately Gemma O'Doherty's work on this case can't be stood over as being reliable. Even reading the McGinn report you can see where there was hectoring of witnesses by her and browbeating with conspiracy theories. She had also published accounts of happenings that were disputed by the witnesses.
It was a long time back I learned that the Molloy family, having initially welcomed her attention, had been badly burned and wanted nothing more to do with her. Similar to the Mary Boyle case.
I think it’s generally accepted that he didn’t target that file per se- I believe numerous files were stolen -regardless of number, this happened to be one of them
In 1987, Martin Cahill stole an entire filling cabinet of files from the DPP. There were 145 files stolen in total.
Here is a more complete story of the stolen file and how it relates to the death of Veronica Guerin.
Why would Martin Cahill steal the file and how would he know to look for it? I used to follow Gemma's reporting on this and the Mary Boyle case, but she seemed to be stretching things.
Interesting about the black eye and pushing him against a coffee table way before main event.... wonder did he report those assaults to gardai.....that would be intimadation...nothing in 1st part of documentary about that...this was over 10 years ago...that culprit could be dead today
Between 2010 and 2012, Gemma O'Doherty uncovered a lot of information that wasn't in the documentary.
Fr Molloy was involved in a business deal with the Flynns and he wanted out of it. He consulted his solicitor about getting his money back, in what was described as an "anxious" visit. In the days before he died, the priest had a black eye. He named the perpetrator to his cousin.
Gemma O'Doherty learnt that the same individual had assaulted the priest, pushing him against a coffee table days before the murder. The perpetrator is still at large.
In another twist, some of Fr Molloy's valuables went missing after he died, including a horse and several paintings.
It is rare for a journalist to achieve what Gemma has: delivering fresh witnesses with key information to a garda investigation that had long ago ran cold. Gemma does not want to "become" the story. She turned the attention instead on another great journalist, the late Veronica Guerin, who was murdered by drug lords in 1996.
Veronica's experiences working on the Fr Molloy story before she died have confirmed to Gemma her own conviction that the case is a bigger story of State failures and complicity of well-connected people.
"At the time she was writing about it, Veronica told the Molloy family that two of her sources in Phoenix Park warned her away from the case and that she was 'walking on thin ice'," said Gemma.
"Veronica was shown the Molloy police file by her underworld source, John Traynor. He came to have it after it was stolen by his associate, Martin Cahill, from the DPP's office in 1987.
"The file contained handwritten letters from the trial judge Frank Roe to the then DPP Eamonn Barnes saying he knew the parties in the case. Two of the judge's former colleagues have confirmed this to be the case, and say Frank Roe, a keen horseman, knew the Flynns and Fr Molloy through fox-hunting circles.
"The week before Veronica was due to publish one of her stories on the case, the Sunday Independent flagged it. Days later, she received the first threat on her life when shots were fired through the window of her home," said Gemma.
I hope jmayo and plentyotoole won't be going to the same wedding reception this weekend.
Was it the parkes family that the main fianna fail connections were with?
It would have been a real scandal in those times if a public figure had of been present when this grubby little violence took place.
I would guess that some pressure came to bear and a lot of people were happy that it was a pretty inept investigation.
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