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The Decline of Religion

Is it worth holding open a sticky containing news which suggests that religion might be in decline? Let's see.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The aircraft hangar-like concrete monstrosity in Finglas is to be demolished.

First up, it's beeen announced that one of the largest churches in Ireland is finally shutting its door next month, to be replaced by a building 10% of the size of the original.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/catholic-church-finglas-dublin-15102137

One can only hope that the new building might be worth visiting, architecturally at least, for something more interesting than the quantity of air it encloses.

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Hotblack Desiato

Very strange. Seem like guidelines for a post-nuclear holocaust society - but will anyone be able to read them?

Meanwhile, in a survey in the US "no religion" was the most chosen option

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/13/us/no-religion-largest-group-first-time-usa-trnd/index.html?utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=image&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2019-04-13T14%3A12%3A27

For the first time "No Religion" has topped a survey of Americans' religious identity, according to a new analysis by a political scientist. The non-religious edged out Catholics and evangelicals in the long-running General Social Survey.

Ryan Burge, a political scientist at Eastern Illinois University and a Baptist pastor, found that 23.1% of Americans now claim no religion.

Catholics came in at 23.0%, and evangelicals were at 22.5%.

The three groups remain within the margin of error of each other though, making it a statistical tie. Over 2,000 people were interviewed in person for the survey.

"Religious nones," as they are called by researchers, are a diverse group made up of atheists, agnostics, the spiritual, and those who are no specific organized religion in particular. A rejection of organized religion is the common thread they share.

"It is the first time we have seen this. The same questions have been asked for 44 years," Burge told CNN.

The meteoric rise of religious nones began in the early 1990s and has grown 266% since 1991, he said.

Burge estimates that 'No Religion' will be the largest group outright in four to six years.

Hotblack Desiato

Religious order ‘overwhelmed’ by death of 10 priests in Covid-19 wave

Ten priests from the Spiritan order died in the month of January, eight of them having tested positive for Covid-19.

In a statement, the order – also known as the Holy Ghost Fathers – said the number of deaths in such a short period of time was “overwhelming”.

Six were in their eighties and four were aged between 90 and 97. All but two had tested positive for Covid-19. The order declined to state which two had not tested for the disease.

In addition the order lost seven priests during the first wave of Covid-19. Three of them tested positive for the virus and three others had Covid-related symptoms.

HSE to target religious congregations for vaccination after surge of Covid-19 deaths

The Health Service Executive (HSE) has said it does not know how many clergy live in congregated settings, which are to be targeted next week for Covid-19 vaccines.

Homes for elderly priests and nuns are not classified as nursing homes and are not regulated by the Health Information and Quality Authority (HIQA).

They were not included on the priority list for early vaccinations though the HSE vaccination teams intends to target them next week.

The Covid-19 pandemic has hit many religious congregations very hard. In April three retired and former Jesuit priests and a Jesuit brother died at the congregation’s Cherryfield Lodge nursing home in Dublin’s Milltown.

Four retired members of the Augustinian religious order died and six others were infected in a Covid-19 outbreak at a Co Wicklow retirement home run on behalf of the order.

Four Oblate priests died at the order’s retirement home in Inchicore in Dublin last spring from Covid-19. Four nuns in an unnamed convent in the southwest died from Covid-19 and 12 of the 14 residents were infected, according to a report published in the Journal of Nursing Home Research Science in July. It recommended greater monitoring of such facilities.

The Spiritan order lost 10 priests last month, eight who had Covid-19, and a further seven in April though the order closed its retirement home in Kimmage in Dublin last year.

According to figures collated by the Irish Catholic newspaper, 36 priests died in April last year at the height of the pandemic compared to 12 in 2019, eight in 2018 and 14 in 2017. Between March and August last year 135 priests died compared to 79 priests died in 2019 in the same six-month period.

The HSE will begin vaccinating in these congregated settings next week.

However, HSE chief operations officer Anne O’Connor cautioned that “we have no line of sight outside what is registered with Hiqa. There are groupings outside any registered body so we are trying to capture them through all different channels, but there are ones that we don’t know about. We are making a list of those now”.

The Association of Leaders of Missionaries & Religious of Ireland (AMRI) secretary general David Rose said it has highlighted the risk to older religious and their carers to the HSE.

“We are very concerned about Covid related deaths in religious communities. We extend our sincere sympathy to the Spiritans and to all congregations who have lost members to Covid,” he said.

“We understand that the HSE is considering additional congregated settings included religious, and that is very welcome. The HSE regional offices have been very helpful in supporting religious communities in managing Covid.”

Mr Rose said the majority of religious – priests, brothers and sisters – who are members of AMRI will fall into the priority category to receive the vaccine given their age in the coming weeks.

Last para says it all really...

Hotblack Desiato

Also, not really a surprise but Diarmuid Martin was in denial about this til the last...

Sunday Mass in every church to become a thing of the past, Dublin Archbishop says

Dublin’s new Catholic Archbishop has said celebration of Sunday Mass in every church will become a thing of the past and a declining priesthood will require a greater role for lay leadership.

In a interview on the day of his formal installation, Archbishop Dermot Farrell set out the current state of his diocese in numbers , 197 parishes served by 350 active priests with an average age of 70.

He said there was now a need to reorganise parishes both in terms of how they are divided out and the possibility of lay leadership.

“We need to talk to the people on the ground. Eventually we will only have possibly one priest per parish and maybe not even that many priests as we go forward,” he said.

“So more and more lay people are going to have to take responsibility in terms of the leadership that’s provided at parish level.”

Are they any younger than the priests though?

Speaking to The Hard Shoulder on Newstalk , Archbishop Farrell also said a lot of church infrastructure has been in place since earlier centuries when things were very different and is probably no longer needed. He said decisions on church closures would be required.

“It’s certain that we won’t be able to celebrate Sunday mass in every church in every parish in this diocese,” he said.

“I think the Lord is probably saying to us at this time: I don’t want you to keep doing the things that you were doing 100 years ago, 200 years ago.”

Pity he didn't speak to them about child abuse at all, isn't it? :rolleyes:

U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time

https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx

Gallup wrote:

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans' membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup's eight-decade trend. In 2020, 47% of Americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% in 1999.

U.S. church membership was 73% when Gallup first measured it in 1937 and remained near 70% for the next six decades, before beginning a steady decline around the turn of the 21st century.

As many Americans celebrate Easter and Passover this week, Gallup updates a 2019 analysis that examined the decline in church membership over the past 20 years.

Gallup asks Americans a battery of questions on their religious attitudes and practices twice each year. The following analysis of declines in church membership relies on three-year aggregates from 1998-2000 (when church membership averaged 69%), 2008-2010 (62%), and 2018-2020 (49%). The aggregates allow for reliable estimates by subgroup, with each three-year period consisting of data from more than 6,000 U.S. adults.

The decline in church membership is primarily a function of the increasing number of Americans who express no religious preference. Over the past two decades, the percentage of Americans who do not identify with any religion has grown from 8% in 1998-2000 to 13% in 2008-2010 and 21% over the past three years.

Any guesses as to the scale on the vertical axis?

Hotblack Desiato

I think the best approach with that one is ignore the horizontal lines which are clearly for decorative purposes only

70% to below 50% in 20 years is a hell of a change (see what I did there?) and points to a very largely religious generation being replaced by a very largely irreligious one.

Therefore we can expect this trend to continue in the next generation and the religious affiliation figure to continue to drop sharply and approach European norms (which are still falling)

Of course there will be some percentage of Americans who are religious but not members of any church - but, given the number of different churches there and the lack of any taboo over switching allegiance, probably not that many.

Whereas here in Ireland, we have lots of people who are not at all religious but still proclaim membership of the RCC. Cultural, innit! :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

Civil marriages overtake Catholic marriages for the first time

OK so last year was not a normal year, but still, it's in line with the trend of recent years - 42.1% of marriages were civil, 34.6% catholic, 7.8% humanist, 6.7% spiritualist.

Given that spiritualist weddings can have as much or as little woo as you like, the restrictions on when and where you can have an official HSE civil marriage, and the shortage of humanist celebrants, they're mostly in reality non-religious as well although designated as religious by the state (once again we're in the ridiculous position of having a supposedly secular state having to decide what is a "valid" religion and what isn't.)

So in all likelihood well over 50% of all marriages are now non-religious. Who'd have thought it!

Now, where are all the non-church schools for the resulting kids...?

Hotblack Desiato

'A possible disaster': Catholic Church reckons with declining interest post-pandemic

In a pastoral reflection on the future of the Catholic Church last month, one of the church’s newest and youngest bishops, Bishop of Clonfert Michael Duignan (50), pondered the challenges that lie ahead.

“I fear that we might mistakenly think that once the current Covid restrictions are lifted and once we return to public worship, everything will be all right,” said the bishop. Instead, he believes the future will be “very different”.

Some “fear a possible disaster”, he said, with “fewer people practising, financial difficulties, children and families further distanced from the sacraments and congregations permanently migrating to the comfort of online attendance”.

“There may even be a growing realisation that, although much of what we normally do as church was absent these last months, for many people, it was not really missed,” said Bishop Duignan.

Others, he said, speak of the pandemic as simply hastening the decline of the Catholic Church in Irish life, one “that was already quite evident – [but] fast-forwarding it a decade or more”.

In the past, the church tried to “engage with and convert secular society”, he said, but perhaps it was now time “to seriously engage with and convert ourselves and the way we live as a Christian community within that secular society”.

The church should “muster the courage to free ourselves from many of the things we are currently doing that are no longer fruitful and that are, at times, counterproductive”.

“Can we really continue with the number of Masses we have? Can we really keep all our churches open? And what is our future role in Catholic education? Can we continue to act as patron of so many primary schools?”

From Monday, 50 people will be able to gather in churches, mosques or other religious venues, including funerals and weddings, though Catholic Communions and Confirmations are not allowed.

All places of worship stayed open for private prayer during the latest lockdown, so religious venues are already practised in the public health rules needed on sanitising and seating, and so on.

The Catholic Church is the faith most affected by the pandemic because of the emphasis placed on attendance at public worship, which is why it has taken such a heavy blow over the past 15 months, especially financially.

The income of most priests has fallen by a quarter. By last June, the Archdiocese of Dublin’s two main donation streams for priests had dropped by 70 and 80 per cent respectively in just three months.

A voluntary redundancy scheme in the Dublin archdiocese was oversubscribed, with staff cut from 82 to 42, while reduced pay will likely remain for the rest of the year, even with restrictions removed.

The thoughts of Bishop Duignan reflect those of the Archbishop of Dublin, Dermot Farrell, who spoke to parishioners in Churchtown during yet another virtual Mass recently.

The challenge for Catholics now is “to live out” baptismal pledges and appeal to younger people “rather than exhausting ourselves” trying to preserve structures “inherited from another time”, he said.

Highlighting the shortage of priests in the church now and in the years to come, Archbishop Farrell performed his first ordination on Vocations Sunday last month, just his second since he became a bishop in 2018.

The average age of priests in Dublin was now 70, he said in his Churchtown homily: “As bishop, one of the key difficulties I face is not that of having fewer priests, but that of not having younger clergy.”

The Dublin archdiocese has just two studying for the priesthood. Many of his priests are over 75, entitled to retire but continuing to serve “with evident generosity of spirit”.

The Archbishop wondered whether “renewed appreciation of the role of the laity [has] perhaps unintentionally rendered the true role of priest invisible”.

“Forty-two years ago when Pope St John Paul visited Ireland this was not a difficult question. Everyone knew what priesthood was about,” he said, but the same question was less easy to answer when Pope Francis came three years ago.

To plan for the future, Archbishop Farrell has set up a 14-strong group, representing lay men and women and clergy, to scope out “a radical renewal” of the archdiocese. An interim report is expected in June.

Time is passing too in other dioceses. Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary will retire in April, aged 75. The Bishop of Ferns, Denis Brennan, was 75 last June, while Bishop of Galway Brendan Kelly will be 75 on May 20th.

Successors for each are due in coming months, but it could bring change most of all for Bishop Duignan, who may be moved to the Galway diocese, though one that could be expanded to include Clonfert, the diocese he now leads.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/might-covid-and-2020-mark-a-final-rupture-in-history-of-irish-catholicism-1.4637092

Might Covid and 2020 mark a final rupture in history of Irish Catholicism?

Apparently it's all the fault of Vatican II... 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713353#Comment_117713353

Ye gods, reading young Salvador's prose is like driving across a recently ploughed field in a Citreon 2CV.

Hotblack Desiato

Not sure if that's quite the diss you intended, the 2CV's suspension was designed so that a farmer could bring his trays of eggs to market across a ploughed field without breaking them 😉

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714995#Comment_117714995

Glad you got the reference 😉

For the record, I believe the 2CV design criterion involved driving lengthways up and down the furrows with a basket of eggs, while the bumpiness of Mr Ryan's hokey prose suggests that one is driving crossways.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-archbishop-of-dublin-says-belief-has-vanished-in-ireland-1.4648399

Catholic Archbishop of Dublin says belief has ‘vanished’ in Ireland

“The current model of the Church is unsustainable,” he said. In Dublin there was need “for an effective programme of catechetics throughout the diocese to add to and, eventually, replace the current teaching of faith to the young. With the gradual decline of family socialisation in religion, the role of the qualified catechist will be essential. In my opinion, the handing on of the Faith to the young is one of the most serious challenges facing our Church today.”

Whatever. Just get the hell out of our schools...

The demolition of one of the largest catholic churches in Dublin has started. I was christened in that church. I wonder if the demolition nullifies that?

https://dublinpeople.com/news/dublin/articles/2021/09/08/demolition-of-landmark-church-of-annunciation-in-finglas-begins/?fbclid=IwAR2ICMXCbf8o6kk4WrkpU4RdnNXtt4B7mlmcB6NKtCPClIjGWh6iBiUIgh4

Hotblack Desiato

Sadly not!

Only a month short of 3 years since the last mass was held there and over 18 months since they got planning permission, but it's not a protected structure so they could have started demolishing it whenever they liked.

Makes you wonder though if a new church is necessary at all, given the lack of urgency presumably (pre-covid) parishoners were managing to go somewhere else - not many places in Dublin city where another church isn't far away - didn't Farrell say there would have to be amalgamations of parishes and church closures? Is that going to be another "divestment" where they say it'll happen but nothing does?

Oh well, one less McQuaid Monstrosity on the Dublin skyline, that has to be an improvement.

Sinn Fein TD Dessie Ellis said the church was “a well-known and much loved landmark for 50 years."

Should've gone to Specsavers...

i wonder if dessie ellis is bringing some of his, em, expert knowledge for the demolition process.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/number-of-priests-in-tuam-archdiocese-has-more-than-halved-in-25-years-archbishop-1.4701006

The number of active priests in Tuam’s Catholic archdiocese has more than halved over the past 25 years, while it has just two men training for the priesthood, Archbishop Michael Neary has noted.

Speaking in Westport on Thursday at an in-service gathering of priests of the archdiocese, he recalled how “when we gathered here in Hotel Westport in the autumn of 1996 for our first annual in-service, we had 115 diocesan priests in full-time ministry within, and 5 in ministries outside the archdiocese. We were assisted by 15 non-diocesans at that time, and 10 priests were fully retired. There were also 14 seminarians for the diocese in seminaries in Ireland and in Rome.”

He continued: “Today, we have 47 diocesan priests in full-time ministry; we are assisted by 11 others; 1 diocesan priest working outside the diocese, and 34 priests are fully retired. There are two seminarians.”

Hotblack Desiato

ACP discuss the rearrangement of the deckchairs on the Titanic

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/diocesan-synods-last-chance-saloon-for-catholic-church-priest-meeting-hears-1.4725168

Plus some waffle from the new Dublin archbishop about schools:

A great strength of faith-based schools "has been their rootedness in local communities. Those who do not share our faith come to our schools because they know that at their heart there is the acceptance of values motivated by our faith – values that present a specific vision or view of human life."

Nah, they go to your schools because they don't really have any fúcking choice 😡

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118153143#Comment_118153143

I wonder what the average age of the attendees was.

Hotblack Desiato

God's waiting room

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/great-change-needed-in-dublin-s-ageing-catholic-archdiocese-says-report-1.4739820

Almost half of the 312 priests in Dublin’s Catholic Archdiocese are more than 70 years old, with just two students preparing for priesthood.

Catholic priests retire at 75, which means that the 139 now more than 70 will have retired by 2026, leaving 173 ageing clergy to serve Dublin’s 1.1 million Catholics.

According to the last census in 2016, 70 per cent of Dublin’s 1.57 million population identified as Roman Catholic. Of those aged 25-29 then, just more than half identified as Roman Catholic, while a fifth of Dublin’s total population recorded no religion.

It found that “the scale and duration of the scandal of abuse of children by clergy, and the legacy of the institutionalisation of women and children, have gravely eroded the credibility of the church”.

It's not so much the fact that there were abusers, but that they were shielded which has done the most damage, imho.

But if they said that then the bishops would have to take the blame.

The coronavirus pandemic “accentuated systemic challenges facing the church in Dublin. The severe impact of Covid restrictions on attendance at Mass and on the associated collections impacted on the finances of every parish and damaged the financial sustainability of the archdiocese”.

Bottom line is always their highest concern. How about they sell off some of the massive unused land banks they have - might even drive the price of development land and therefore houses down in Dublin?

As a strategy towards renewal in the archdiocese, the taskforce recommended that this begin with a “statement of mission” from Archbishop Farrell, followed by discussion at parish level where each parish would prepare a report on its future. Dr Farrell would then engage with parishes on their reports, leading to an overall pastoral plan for the future of the archdiocese.

Sounds like a winning strategy...

My local church installed a card machine at the entrance so mass goers could make a donation. no coins please.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108135317#Comment_108135317

That’s a bit of a false dilemma, if they can do both. As it stands now the population is going to fall for decades or centuries.

Hotblack Desiato

Thanks for the hot take on a three year old post.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40780641.html

More than 21% of Ireland's entire population of parish priests and brothers — both serving and retired — have died in just three years.

The Association of Catholic Priests says that parishes are going to have to be amalgamated, churches closed, and fewer Masses held.

Fr John Collins, one of the ACP’s directors, said: “The figures are shocking. It is very sad to see so many have died in such a short space of time.

“We are all aware of an ageing priest population, but it is only when you look at the figures that you realise what a high number it is.

This is a truly shocking illustration of the extent of the problem facing the Church.”

He added that the number of those dying every year is "only going to keep rising".

The problem is this - will it be the priests or the parishoners who all die out first?

The church seems to be claiming on insurance for income lost during the pandemic. Is this kind of corporate income protection actually a thing? Or are they just chancing their holy arms?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-in-insurance-compensation-talks-over-millions-of-lost-pandemic-income-1.4886374

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106659#Comment_119106659

they are claiming off their insurance company. if they have such a policy in place they would be foolish not to claim.

Foolish not to try to claim if they believe they've a chance of recovering the lost cash. But I was more wondering about the basis for the claim - is there such a thing as income protection insurance for what's essentially a corporate entity? If so, I've never heard of it. Also, would the insurance company be able to refuse to pay, on the grounds that the pandemic was an act of god? Comes down to whatever contract is governing the cover I suppose.

Hotblack Desiato

TBH if pubs have succeeded (eventually) with similar claims then they probably have a case. No doubt many of our highly paid learned friends will be looking closely into this for quite some time.

NB the catholic church in Ireland actually investigated (not sure if they followed through) insuring itself against paedophilia compensation claims. That was before they got their pet minister to soak the populace for a billion plus...

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/06/04/the-catholic-churchs-billion-euro-land-sale-and-its-just-getting-started/

€€€€€€€€€

Hotblack Desiato

Australia's census results are out, Christian and religious affiliation in general continue to fall dramatically.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/28/2021-australian-census-results-ten-things-we-learned-australia-abs-data

While Christianity is still the most common religion in Australia, religious diversity is increasing: 43.9% of respondents identified as Christian in the 2021 census compared to more than half in 2016 and 61% in 2011.

At the same time, more people are identifying as atheist or agnostic. Almost 40% of the population responded “no religion” on the 2021 census, an increase of 10% in the past five years.

Interestingly, while almost 60% of baby boomers reported a religious affiliation, 46.5% of millennials reported having no religion.