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Leaving Cert 2021 Grade inflation

Treppen

Personally I blame the teachers .

They should be living down to their reputation as being useless lazy civil servants, but instead they go and ruin it all and educate their students to an even higher standard.

Is there any mechanism for getting rid of these good teachers?

Cut their wages further and kick them into private sector I say.

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silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117864657#Comment_117864657

not at the teacher/school level but centrally they did when they issued the final grades , My kids school was furious last year because the students were marked down in a particular subject where they outperform any kind of national average by a large margin.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117864013#Comment_117864013

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117863888#Comment_117863888

Define a fair grade

[Deleted User]

I'm not sure one way or the other, I'm assuming that a bell curve would apply.

It'd be surprising if teachers were able to hand out grades without one.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117864013#Comment_117864013

Was it? Never heard that. As I understand it they just gave estimated grades and now too many people have the maximum points leading to random selection.

[Deleted User]

Was it not the case that teachers had to stick to a bell curve within their predicted grades?

markodaly

Are teachers not also to blame given they lack the professionalism to grant their students fair grades?

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860503#Comment_117860503

Listen to Joe Duffy today, all the students and parents scrambling for someone to blame... but yet nobody remembers the "pro-choice" student lobby who caused this mess.

We want predicted grades they said.

We want to sit exams they said.

We want the best of either grade they said.

As soon as Norma broke and granted their wishes the outcome was inevitable.

Students have only themselves to blame for this one. Be careful what you wish for.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859875#Comment_117859875

I'm very well aware of students who "self-study and manage to achieve top marks"... are you aware what percentage of the student cohort this is?

Could you give a figure?

You seem to know a lot about education.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117863222#Comment_117863222

no question our educational system is academically biased, the whole systems a mess, society needs a good mixture of academically trained and non-academically trained, but degrees are not practically worthless, scarcity of something doesnt always mean its good for society

nolivesmatter

The real problem is too many people are trying to go to college. Degrees have become practically worthless. Unfair as it sounds the value in having a degree is in most people not having one.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862216#Comment_117862216

You are quite correct. In principle one might adjust for this by upping the 2000 points score by x% or maybe by a constant y points to compensate for the inflation. Of course in 2022 you might have to lower the inflated 2021 grades to "compensate" if you are consistent. I can only imagine the outrage that this would cause among the easily-outraged on Joe Duffy and in the Irish Times.

And so the futile search for perfect fairness in an imperfect world continues....

dam099

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848821#Comment_117848821

I think a fail in maths may be a prerequisite for journalism courses judging by the quality of mathematical reasoning in a lot of news articles. 😋

Wanderer78

jesus christ, when will we ever drop this ridiculous leaving cert/points system, ffs!

noplacehere

There were huge changes to the requirements for the exam. Grade inflation was always going to happen as a consequence this year

https://assets.gov.ie/128047/0872bba7-89ae-4524-9f24-dfe3a2d16830.pdf

there are also smaller changes to the exams in 2022 so I would expect it to drop back towards 2019 results and then hopefully back to the norms by 2023

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862325#Comment_117862325

I guess for things like medicine there is competition for places so grades and subject choice would matter. They seem to be chasing foreign students so they probably have more capacity than students

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862135#Comment_117862135

People understand the concept of inflation. As already stated, predictive grades affect the integrity of the system and sudden points inflation affects continuity.

Also, there is a psychological aspect to this inflation. There are people who did this year's LC who achieved a "perfect" 625 points who may not be offered their first choice. Even having to achieve 625 points i.e. 6 H1s is bad in itself - it heaps pressure on people and makes them feel that they must be perfect in a variety of subjects requiring different aptitudes. Even if it is "easier" to be perfect than it used to be.

When, say, Dentistry in TCD was 530 points back in the mid nineties, compared to 625 today you'd feel that there was some scope for error, having an off day or being weaker in your humanities subjects than in your science subjects.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862093#Comment_117862093

What happens when more people apply than there are places?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862135#Comment_117862135

That only holds true for the cohort of students that were in any given years LC. Problems start to arise when students from different years apply through the CAO system as you're then comparing different standards. Those who are using 2020 results are being disadvantaged and it's likely that those of this 2021 cohort will be better off if they choose to wait out a year for next years CAO system. Only solution to this is to insist that all students applying through CAO must use results from the current year.

Economics101

How many times do people miss the blindingly obvious. Grade inflation means that students are being rewarded with a depreciating currency, As in ordinary price inflation the root cause is excess points/money creation. Just as your €100 will buy a lot less than it would have a year ago if inflation were 10% p.a., your depreciated grade-inflated points will not "buy" you the same course as they would have a year ago, But the while process is caused by the average joe getting more points than they would have a year ago, so in real terms they are generally no worse off

Economists often talk about "money illusion" when people tend to confuse nominal changes in income with real changes at a time of price inflation. A lot of people now seem to suffer from "points illusion", exactly the same mistake.

silverharp

My son wants to study Computer Science in Germany , they dont have a points system for these courses its basically a case of only apply if you think you have the aptitude for it and its on you if you dont. With the obsession about points I wonder do students fall into the trap of thinking a particular course is better just because it has higher points, so end up doing a course they arent competent to do

.G.

I sat it in 1996 and it's as pointless today as it was then. Its sole purpose is to gain points to get into college. If you've no interest in going to college it isn't worth worrying about it. Just do enough to pass it and move on with your life. I've never had any employer show interest at all in how I did in it, was only FAS who required the bare minimum grades to enter the trade I entered.

Similarly if you do want to go to college then study and do well but once you get to college no employer will be interested in your leaving cert, only how you did in college. Told my own son not to worry or stress over it, his future career and prospects aren't set by how he does in this thing, only in what he does after it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861937#Comment_117861937

Aptitude tests won't help with anything and are irrelevant to what is even being attempted to be tested. You may as well suggest a sports day to rank students.

They are generally pretty flawed things, and will benefit the exact same people who were best prepped to get through the learning disruptions anyway.

Predictive grades and judging ability based on what material they were able to cover is still vastly preferable.

plodder

Why isn't the overall score simply the sum of the percentage scores in the top six subjects? Why is it based on grades at all?

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861871#Comment_117861871

Well done on missing the point and pointing out the blindingly obvious. Of course aptitude tests are not about testing learned material - that is the point. The learning of material and exam prep in the senior cycle has been seriously disputed by Covid. The solution that we came up with was to try to maintain a semblance of normality using predictive grades. Result: court cases, introduction of subjectivity, removal of anonymity, undermining of the system, lack of continuity, points inflation and undoubtedly people gaming the system.

ireallydontknow

Headline in the Independent today: 'Number of students with 625 points in Leaving Cert more than doubles.' The real story is that it has increased more than fivefold on 2019. How could they possibly ignore that angle?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861827#Comment_117861827

I agree with your sentiment but I'm not sure aptitude tests or deflating to historical trends would have resolved anything. What's ignored in the excitement about record points is that the inflation is not uniform. Last year there were many many students aggrieved by their under-performance, many whose teacher-determined grades were marked down by an algorithm. Your suggestion of deflating grades would only have exacerbated that imbalance and brought arbitrary grade-reductions to scandalous levels, all for the benefit of past and future years. In years gone by, with B2, B3, C1, etc, it might have mattered less, but nowadays a grade reduction is a huge penalty. As for aptitude tests, that's a whole other kettle of fish: there are always ways to hack them, hugely controversial, likely to be better predictors of success for some courses than others...

Podge_irl

Aptitude tests are nothing whatsoever to do with testing learned material and have no place in the LC. Also they can and are gamed by people with more resources constantly.

BrianD3

Inflation in anything is problematic and is particularly bad in this case given the effects on people's careers and the undermining of the continuity of the system in a short space of time. What happens next year, will a way need to be found to keep points inflated so that next year's students aren't disadvantaged by having to compete with those who apply for college courses in 2022 with their 2021 points.

CAO points have been trending upwards for many years but at least it was gradual. E.g. the percentage of students achieving 500+ points roughly doubled between 1995 and 2003.

Was the running of aptitude tests in 2021 instead of a traditional LC ever considered. Points inflation could have been avoided by standardising scores to 2019 CAO points. If 500 points was the 90th percentile in 2019 and someone is in the 90th percentile in the aptitude test in 2021, award them 500 points. If the aptitude tests only required minimal study then that could solve another problem - the disruption to the academic year with some students suffering much more than others e.g. cases where there was a covid outbreak in a school or at home, distracting and stressing students and affecting their studies. Then, possibly and depending on personality etc., having a teacher "feel sorry for them" and awarding a generous predictive grade which is obviously problematic.

spurious

Here are some Maths type papers to compare.

https://archive.maths.nuim.ie/staff/dmalone/StateExamPapers/

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846337#Comment_117846337

I sat it 16 years ago, and remember hearing hwo it was well known that it was a different beast to 10-20 years prior.

Is anyone reading the thread who sat it 30 odd years ago and heard the same when they sat it?

Probably best to compare past papers to make sure it's not "back in my day"isms at play.