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Abortion in America

Timberrrrrrrr

I haven't seen a thread on this yet but wondering what people's thoughts are.

Basically now in Texas if you want an abortion after six weeks you can't have one, There is no wiggle room even for rape or incest.

The worst part is that it's not the police who will get you but your family, friends, neighbours. They can sue health care professionals or If you help someone obtain an abortion you can be sued. They have even incentivesed people to report anyone getting an abortion by offering a $10,000 "reward".

Below is the White House statement on the matter, hopefully they can somehow get this overturned.

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padd b1975

Good news for the unborn all the same.

[Deleted User]

As toxic and noxious as American politics can be and I completely understand that we sometimes spend far too much time focused on crazy stuff going on over there, but I think this does have some relevance in Ireland, largely because they are headed to where we were not very many years ago. So, I think we do have a unique perspective on it by most Western European standards.

From what I can see a large part of the USA is rapidly regressing, across a whole load of issues, to some bygone era and is becoming extremely conservative and religious in formation of public policy, much like what you're seeing in parts of Latin America and Eastern Europe.

It's worrying to see trends in the US that are anti-democratic, or delegitimising democratic processes. You've widespread acceptance of gerrymandering and using loopholes and basically abuse of process to force various things through on narrow technical regulation, rather than broad consensus and you've a former president and a large part of the population that does not accept the legitimacy of a election. It's not because of anything having happened, but rather that they just don't like the result.

The US is a full presidential democracy and it's mirrored at state level with the gubernatorial system, and many of its structures haven't really changed all that much since the 1700s. So, it's one of the oldest democratic systems in the world, but that does not imply it's the most functional. From what I can see the US is looking more and more like unstable full presidential democracies in Latin America and Africa, where there's an acceptance of strongman leadership and all that goes with it. You're seeing the same in parts of Eastern Europe too, notably Russia which is kind of not unexpected given it has very little real democratic history, but within the EU, Hungary in particular and Poland are sliding in the same direction.

I think just ignoring what's going on the US is not really an option as it's somewhere that has a lot of relevance here, but what we should probably avoid doing is taking elements of crazy American politics and assuming they apply here, and you see a lot of that in online bubbles.

I could see several American states sliding back to some kind of evangelical version of where we were in the 1960s/70s, applying hardcore religious morality to public policy, but it's actually worse in many ways as they are doing that within a context of the undermining of acceptance of democratic rule too. So it's looking maybe more like it's heading towards Spain in the 1960s.

This kind of thing is also likely to destabilise the US. It's not as if there's a broad universal acceptance of the direction that they're going, rather the concept of finding consensus is gone and it's heading for at the very least a culture war.

Texas is now headed for a situation where they will have two sides pitched against each other, unable to agree on anything and ultimately that just will lead to a state that becomes ungovernable. You can see what happens when a society gets polarised on issues by just looking to Stormont and how many times that assembly has collapsed.

I mean where is the US headed? More government shut downs, an ineffective legislature, state governments at logger heads with themselves, politicised courts? Very poor quality electoral candidates, anyone sensible, pragmatic, moderate or bipartisan is quickly run out of office leaving a vacuum being filled by zealots, religious extremists, conspiracy theorists, showmen and power hungry sociopaths that are increasingly dominating politics and all that leads, understandably towards protests, riots and growing disaffection with democracy ...

It's not a pretty picture.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846973#Comment_117846973

Abortion is the canary in the coal mine for this SCOTUS. The fact that they let this ridiculous law stand means they will likely allow all kinds of other shenanigans from republican controlled states, voter suppression will be green lighted by this SCOTUS giving the next election to the republicans, and then it’s a downward spiral from there

Biden has no choice if he cares about democracy. He has to pull the trigger

JupiterKid

Texas is an incredibly backward, bigoted state populated by ignorant rednecks and I look forward to when this completely mean-spirited and anti-women law is forcibly revoked via the US Supreme Court, whenever that may be.

Since the Roe vs Wade ruling in 1973 abortion and reproductive rights for women have been a constant battleground in America

Texas is one of the most backward US states on all measures of social well-being - minority rights, employee protections, environmental protection, health indicators, infant mortality, inequality, animal welfare, town planning etc. - the list just goes on and on.

It's also a very salutary reminder that social progress can be reversed, no progress should be taken for granted as just as rights for women can be fought for and won, they can also be taken away by religious nutjobs.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846240#Comment_117846240

Yes. Biden can expand the supreme court and nominate as many judges as he likes, And, yes, his successor can do the same, so it could end up being a tit for tat with every time an administration changes hands, the supreme court gets bigger.

The problem is supreme court nominations need senate approval so only presidents that control the senate could pump the SC full of judges and successfully fill those seats.

What the SCOTUS currently have done, is basically tear up the US constitution. Their decision to allow a blatantly unconstitutional law to remain in force pending SCOTUS review of said blatantly unconstitutional law, is akin to saying that states do not have to apply the US constitution when drafting laws. It's a hugely dangerous precedent.

Biden may have no choice but to take the 'Nuclear option' to rebalance the supreme court.

Tell me how

Let there be no confusion as to my view on this or people who support such disconnected Conservative ideals and the people who behave like this while denouncing anyone interested in the common good as being radical socialists.

Fcuk each and every last one of them.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845569#Comment_117845569

Can he do that? And if he does could a successor Republican president jack it up again?

Akrasia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/03/texas-abortion-republicans-six-states-arkansas-florida-indiana-mississippi-north-south-dakota

Its snowballing already. Biden will have to expand the Supreme Court to protect the US constitution from being walked back to the Middle Ages. Separation of church and state is next on the agenda

Sonics2k

Lyft And Uber Offer To Pay Legal Fees For Drivers Sued Under Texas Abortion Law (forbes.com)

In another fine example of just how insane this new law is, even a taxi driver can be sued if they bring a pregnant woman to a clinic for an abortion. This is absolute madness.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839138#Comment_117839138

The father.

This law in Texas would not look out of place in the prologue to The Handmaiden’s Tail

A man gets a woman pregnant and threatens to sue her and everyone who helps her to get an abortion.

America is going backwards under this Supreme Court. The question is how far will it slide

Faugheen

That pro life group is genuinely evil.

Evil f*cking bastards.

osarusan

The 'whistleblower' website is being swamped with fake reports, Shrek memes, and porn.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-abortion-prolifewhistleblower-tiktok-reddit-b1913656.html

Igotadose

GoDaddy.com's told the Texas rat-them-out site to bugger off. No doubt they'll land somewhere. Somewhere...without good security I hope. And extremely high prices for low bandwidth!

https://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/godaddy-texas-anti-abortion-tip-website-right-to-life-back-up-2529464

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844997#Comment_117844997

To be honest I believe quite a lot of Christians have twisted their belief structure into something they can use to feel morally superior over others.

I attend church or service therfore I am better than those who do not.

Quite a lot of Christians would in my experience have very limited understanding of the bible and can easily be manipulated by someone professing greater knowledge of Scripture. Especially where it goes along with them gaining a sense of that moral superiority over others.

BorneTobyWilde

Christians are of the thought '' why would you need an abortion if you lived in a moral way''

It's all about religion, like every war, every shooting, every election

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841530#Comment_117841530

That's not the same thing.

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839981#Comment_117839981

Oh but it's only been about 50 odd years. If they leave it for another 50, who knows!?!?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843771#Comment_117843771

It's horrendous. Pregnancy and birth can be traumatising in and of themselves, let alone for a girl or woman who has been raped. 😔

Faugheen

Imagine setting up a law so restrictive on what is a traumatic experience for a woman, and then setting it up in a way that members of the public are encouraged to turn on each other.

That is truly awful.

Itssoeasy

I’m not sure why anyone is surprised by this action in Texas. Donald trump won the presidency and a president gets to appoint Supreme Court justices and he got three opportunities(well one should have been Obama’s pick) and had explicitly said he’d pick pro life justices and he’s got three of them so the balance is tipped squarely conservative. I will say the whole leaving it to the citizens to enforce it has an old eastern blog charm to it.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842912#Comment_117842912

The fact that the law is supposed to be enforced by private individuals is - novel.

It's mental is what it is. Imagine if a state introduced a similar law allowing people to sue police for inappropriate behaviour, or for owning guns? GOP's talking heads would literally explode in anger.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843200#Comment_117843200

If you want to talk about culture warriors, let's have that conversation. We seem to have a different thread here every couple days attacking liberal ideals, climate activists, equal right arguments, and the clearly culturally biased 'Wokeism' thread. Are they all valid discussions started by politically/culturally aware people, or started by culture warriors also? Very interested in an answer to that.

We've a thread on here about the multicultural experience in Sweden. And certainly before the Boards changeover to the new platform, it was a very active thread. How relevant is that discussion to Ireland?

Your argument sounds like one made by those who attack claims of far right voices in Ireland with dismissive responses that no such thing exists. To that I would say, firstly, there can be a far right in the context of Irish politics without it having to mirror what might be classified as far right elsewhere. And secondly, If we can dismiss anyone who is activating for the benefit of others as being a SJW/woke, as happens on here a lot, is it not permitted to flag views/claims which mirror rhetoric from regressives elsewhere as being right wing? Or are culture warriors only on one side of the discussion?

On the broader topic of crossing borders for talking points. Why do you think Tucker Carlson went to Hungary recently to interview Viktor Orban? And Donald Trump sent Orban a signed letter praising him for his nationalistic ideals and how the interview looked on Fox. I believe Tucker did this simply so that he and Fox could talk about their admiration for ultra-nationalist ideals through the vein of it just being about an interview with Orban. I might remind you that Hungary was where English players were roundly racially abused last night. We had another active thread on here during the Euro's lambasting the footballers for kneeling to highlight racism. Were those of us arguing the right of the footballers to protest as they were doing culture warriors also?

Political conversation, opinions, influences are a global conversation now, I'm always very wary of someone trying to stop conversation on elements which relate to this or specific topics themselves.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843272#Comment_117843272

I loved this one

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843273#Comment_117843273

He seems to forget that not everyone posting on this site (myself included) are not Irish and indeed do not live in Ireland.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843200#Comment_117843200

"This thread was created by our very own culture warrior for the purposes of creating division"

What the fùck are you on about?

It may surprise you but some of us have interests that stretch further than whatever small village you hail from.

"If you don't want it to impact us, you don't talk about laws in Texas like they are our problem."

Do you only talk about subjects that affect you directly? What exactly is it that you are afraid of that you have posted several times in the thread to try and shut down a subject that others have an interest in debating?

For someone who has no interest in the subject of the thread you're sure posting in here quite a bit.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843200#Comment_117843200

Who is talking about the Texas law "like it is our problem"? OP didn't mention Ireland.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842571#Comment_117842571

Texas, where a virus has reproductive rights but a woman does not.

One thing important to point out: This gives a green flag to the other states surrounding Texas to institute their own versions of that law (Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas, maybe New Mexico.) Not so easy as to nip on over to another state by car, might turn out to be quite the trip. And, how far behind can the right-wing loony bins like Ohio, Kentucky, Florida, Dakotas be in this. It'll be an avalanche of bad legislation and enormous amounts of litigation until the USSC does something about it, or Congress does (there's a bill presented in the House : https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-speaker-pelosi-pledges-action-bill-response-texas-abortion-law-2021-09-02/

The six week cutoff is absurd, you don't know by that point, it's likely the earliest you realize things are behind schedule. This is effectively no abortion at all in Texas.

And it's massive, destructive judicial malfeasance on Texas's part, allowing neighbors to rat out other neighbors.

For amusement, this is making the rounds on Facebooger:

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842824#Comment_117842824

I actually agree with your middle paragraph and that's the central reason why debating this issue here is not only pointless but poisonous. This thread was created by our very own culture warrior for the purposes of creating division, re-stoking a debate that is settled here. Maybe activists miss the battle? It sure seems like it, that they forgot they won.

There is far to much of this culture war bollocks being posted on Irish sites about what are fundamentally American social problems that are irrelevant for us. If you don't want it to impact us, you don't talk about laws in Texas like they are our problem.

Overheal

The fact that the law is supposed to be enforced by private individuals is - novel.

So it's not the AG's office enforcing this law, or anything. No, the law is set up so private parties, eg. your mom, your neighbor, your coworker has to go through the hassle of suing you themselves for an abortion, or an abortion provider, etc. and then at the end of the process they would, ostensibly, be awarded $10k per abortion plus legal fees.

Doesn't sound like they thought this out, according to the right leaning WSJ even, which argued the precedent is atrocious: that sure, California could now deputize private citizens to sue people for hate speech, get bounties and legal fees paid,etc. Micro aggression? $10k please. Post fake news on facebook? I'm suing you now, with Vermont's new anti-fake news bounty law [example]. $10k please. Roll coal in your pickup truck? Pay me $10k per instance, an assault on the environment! It takes away the requirement of a plaintiff to be an injured party, or an officer of the court, and pays them for winning in litigation, which just requires them to prove an offense happened. #ConservativesAccidentallyBeingSocialist

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-abortion-law-blunder-supreme-court-samuel-alito-john-roberts-whole-womans-health-11630619631

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842768#Comment_117842768

We're not talking about 'courtesy', we're talking about the law.

If I understand the posts correctly, some poeple think that a married man at least, should have the right to know if his partner is pregnant.

Now, most of the time, this isn't an issue as the woman will tell him anyway (happily or not), so it only really becomes an issue when she doesn't want to tell him. In those situations, I'm wondering what him having the legal right to know would actually achieve, or what the outcomes would be, as he'd have no power to influence her decision either way.

Many posters have said on boards over the years that the man should have some rights, some say, when it comes to pregnancies, but those rights, or what that say is, never really gets made clear. Short of the man having the power to either enforce or prevent an abortion, I'm not sure what those rights, or that 'say' can be.

The possibility of becoming pregnant is a biological inequality which can never be balanced out.