Excuse my ignorance..
What's a consenting sex slave??
Are they kept around the house, in a cage, in the cellar, in the shed.....?
Are they like unpaid prostitutes or something..??
Man.... West Cork is the Vegas of Ireland....... It's like an open Asylum down there, the place is over run by fruit cakes..
No wonder the Gards got nowhere with the investigation, it's a den of iniquity!
No passed away 2019. Commandeur de la Légion d'honneur also.
Have you a link or where does this come from? is he still alive?
So ..
A man (most probably) called to her house late that night/early morning perhaps with a nice bottle of wine (Christmas present?). Most probably didn’t want to be seen there during daylight.
She was in nightwear so not expecting someone but she had time to put on her boots to meet the caller at her door/or outside.
She didn’t welcome him or the gift and was already anticipating trouble during her stay there by what she had said so they may have fought previously. No evidence of any entry into the house.
There was an argument/struggle. He may have received some injuries. She ran, he chased her.
She may have had a hatchet (now missing) He may have had a bottle of wine?
He hit her multiple times and then dropped a large block on her head killing her for certain. Displaying a measure of strength and a lack of emotional control. An unbalanced person or someone who did not want to be identified if she went to the Gardai.
It was a frenzied attack by someone unstable or wishing it to look that way. There was nothing stolen (it appears) indicating that this wasn’t the motive.
The body was left to be discovered. He was familiar with the house and probably knew her. He must have changed the blood splattered clothes and shoes soon after. It appears that nothing was heard or seen by locals.
Oh yeah, some of his art is certainly interesting 😳 I'm sure most of these other potential suspects were ruled out by solid alibis tho, especially being the last to see her alive. Gardaí can't be THAT incompetent surely.
Mind you..... 🤔🤔
Mr Ungerer had a consenting sex slave in the 60s.
that means nothing at all, apart from the fact that it is interesting, especially as he and his wife were some of the last to see Sophie alive.
That's an interesting one. I haven't seen Mr Ungerer proposed as a possible suspect before.
Again, no real evidence, but he knew she was there, alone. He was close enough. Was an associate.
That's about it really....can't think of any other links.
The time that the murder occurred, it'd either be a bit late or bit early to call around for that (originally friendly) purpose, without phoning ahead first?
A theory I previously posted which may explain the wine is something Sheridan touched upon in his documentary. The day before she was at the lake and became spooked and went to visit a French family living nearby called the Ungerers. Well what if Mr Ungerer went up there with the wine the next day. He'd have known she was at home all alone and would have known that she was spooked the day before hense the visit to their house. Well maybe he decided to call in on her to see if she was ok after her fright. Maybe she mistook this as an advance on his part and threatened to tell his wife. Maybe the attack was spur of the moment to prevent his wife from finding out about the perceived advance towards Sophie. The wine which was brought up to the house as a gift was subsequently thrown out the window. They no doubt would travel between Ireland and France so it may have been purchased on an earlier journey.
Here's the Reddit post, the relevant bit is the second to last paragraph :
melonysnicketts-The whole investigation was an absolute shambles, and the only reason that poor family will have no solid answer is because of an Garda Siochana.
Could you imagine anyone signing off on the decision for the STATE PATHOLOGIST to leave a victim on the ground in winter conditions for 24hrs whilst he finished off a birthday party?
How do you lose an eight foot gate? That is another question I have for anyone that might care to answer it.
It’s well known the man MF was with was a DSupt in the local area, so I could well see that they pressured her to change her story. The ID parade they put her through only had IB in it, and she’d been told it was him, so what else was she likely to say? A french man has recently been identified as the man she saw outside her shop and she’s spent time with Gardaí to confirm [this]: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/gardai-given-name-frenchman-seen-24409179.amp
No DNA of IB was found anywhere on Sophie or her house/surroundings, and no photos were taken of IB’s scratches or head wounds.
There seems to be a pretty hard division between the people that think he did it, and the people that think he didn’t, in the immediate local area. IB/JT are neighbours of ours, and there is no getting away from the fact he’s an odd man with a violent streak who loves the spotlight. He can regularly be found wandering the local area taking selfies and pulling the face that says ‘ask me a question’. JT for the most part keeps herself to herself and paints well. There’s a school of thought that now they’ve split up, she might tell some tales but who knows.
The division seems to be across the age groups - anyone that remembers it happening is convinced it was him, and the next generations are less convinced. As Jim Sheridan rightly said, you can’t convict a man on personality alone. As it goes, I don’t think he did.
Other evidence that wasn’t mentioned in either documentary are that Sophie’s Housekeeper, Mrs Hellen, reported that a small axe at the back door was missing (which fits with IB’s head wound) and Alfie Lyons, Sophie’s neighbour, answered the door to IB in a dishevelled state on the night of the murder.
The French idea of a ‘bouquet of indications’ is enough to convict IB from the huge amount of circumstantial evidence that has been discovered, regardless of how it was obtained. Under Irish law, this isn’t enough, which is why they’ve repeatedly refused extradition orders.
This was reported 6 years after the murder, in 2003 or 2004, which is at least 2 years after AGS were rebuked by the DPP and the case (at least against IB) had been shelved.
Great post Flanna,
I think 2 and 4 above are the least likely.
But the discarded wine is indeed a fascinating detail.
It may be totally unconnected, but if it is connected, it may, as you say, speak volumes.
Due to the fact that it was not available for purchase locally, its not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that this wine was purchased by an international traveller. If it was subsequently brought to Sophie as a gift, token of love or similar, that opens up all sorts of other possibilities. If we develop the theory further, we may ask which international traveller and why.
However, Sophie may have bought the wine en route from Paris, although, to the best of my knowledge, Mrs Hellen did not say that it was missing from the house.
I agree that the bottle of wine could be very relevent but it equally could be irrelevent. The bottle could have been discarded long before the murder or indeed after the murder.
Did Sophie keep a stock of french wine in the house? If she didnt than it very well could have been bought to the house by a visitor.
I dont think us Irish appreciated expensive bottles of wine in the 90's!
Thanks Bannasidhe.
That nails it for me.
I'm pretty sure this is one of the items the Gardai no longer have.
I read that no useful forensic evidence was found on the bottle at the time but could it be now?
The very fact, that the said wine was not available for purchase in Ireland at the time, and was only available at the airport speaks volumes.
Typically, back in the 90's, there was not many natives prepared to spend £60 - £70 on a bottle of wine coming back from their holidays (where ever)..
So the expensive bottle of French wine found in the vicinity of the murder scene is relevant.
Based on what we know, the wine was brought in from an airport, and was found discarded near to the scene of where a French national was murdered.
The wine was unopened...
So the question is, why was is dumped in a field further up from the crime scene? Or was it flung from a speeding car? if so, why?
1) Yes, it could well have been a peace offering for Sophie from some love torn ex.. Peace offering denied, row ensued, lost the run of himself, battered Sophie, seen the wine on the front seat whilst making off, fires it out the window (obviously can't board a plane back to France with bottle of alcohol).
2) The murderer went back to the house to turn off the light and close the door, see's the French wine and decides to take it as a souvenir. Whilst fleeing the scene, reality kicks in, see's the incriminating bottle of wine and dumps it.
3) The drunken poet does the dastardly deed, walks back to close the door, see's the bottle of wine on the table, can't resist..... Thinks better of it whilst making his escape..
4) The horney Gard batters Sophie, still feeling a little amorous, rings the Babe Farrell to come and collect him, and see's a gift he can bestow on her, to get her into the mood like... Loosen the knickers like...
5) Had somebody previously stolen the wine from Sophie's house (before the murder), somebody near the locality, maybe the person who was taking baths there during Sophie's absence..?? When realising the significance of having expensive French wine in their house (for all the neighbours to see), thought better of it and dumped it. (Granted, it would have been easier to wash the label off it and dispose at a bottle bank or similar, but what if the person had no means of transport, and shat themselves at the thought of being implicated in a murder)
There is a reason for everything, and an expensive bottle of French wine dumped in a field is extraordinary. It didn't sprout legs and get there itself, there is a reason why it was disposed there. It was incriminating in some way to the person that discarded it there.
First I heard of it. She certainly made no such claim to my knowledge in the days after the events. In fact like everyone else in that small circle she was surprised Bailey was a suspect when it became obvious he was.
Earlier on the thread there were a couple of other theories mentioned.
Someone had stolen it from a holiday home but didn't have a corkscrew - there were reports of holiday homes being broken into at the time.
Someone had taken it from Sophie's as a 'souvenir' and thought better of it so ditched it.
The "peace offering" gone wrong idea is interesting also.
If it's not connected then it's amazing that someone would throw away an unopened 60-70 pound bottle of uncommon French wine in a remote area back in 1996!
If the Gards believed it and if there was a possibility that Alfie opened the door to Bailey after or around the time of the murder then the Gards could have arrested Alfie and questioned him under caution. There is no way they would have let the smoking gun drift away on the air.
Agreed, sounds like made up nonsense. If the statement was made the French would have had it too. There may be an outside chance they said something like that but that it was some other night, maybe even some other year. There’s no way this would only come out in some random post on a discussion board.
Yes, I see your point.
If the pair were that terrified of him perhaps they would have kept quiet about it.
But the claimant on reddit states that the information was reported to the Gardai. If so, why would they sit on it for twenty years? It probably would have been enough for them to re-submit the case to the DPP.
I think there is a reasonable chance that it was brought to Sophie as a gift.
It was French wine, don't know the vintage and it was not on sale in any Irish outlets but could be bought at airport duty free shops.
It may, of course, have no connection to Sophie or the crime, but its another intriguing detail.
I quickly edited the post when I found the correct link, but when you quote the post it shows the pre-edited version. PITA...
This is it -
https://www.reddit.com/r/cork/comments/odgiff/sophie_toscan_du_plantier/h40lx5q/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Yes, hard to argue with any of this Flanna.
In particular, two of the points you have raised seem to me to be inexplicable:
Why would Alfie and Shirley keep schtum for 6 years?
If such a report was made to the Gardai why was it not used against him. Even in heir most strenuous efforts to spin, contort, manipulate and manufacture evidence to implicate him, they were unable to put him at the crime scene. This would have been too good an opportunity for them to pass up. May even have been enough to persuade the DPP to reconsider.
Add to that the almost two decades since the report to the Gardai is said to have been made, during which not a whisper of such was heard.........
I Have to agree with your bullshit call....but I would be interested to hear Bannasidhe's take on it.
You assume that Bailey would have knocked at Alfie`s after the murder, but he could have before. Why?....The garlic you mentioned is believed by the Gardaí to be a code word for cannabis. Bailey was trying to locate some the day after the murder. That would be another reason for him to head over to Alfie`s that night. Anyway, I would imagine that Alfie and Shirley were completely traumatized by events. I think people completely underestimate just how fearful many locals are of Bailey. The reality is that somebody in that community liked to ramble around at night and was capable of committing a brutal murder.
Neither Alfie or Shirley made a statement to Gardaí that Bailey was over that night. If they did we wouldn`t be here discussing it. But would they have been so afraid that they might have said nothing until one of them let it slip years later? Maybe.
Possibly...
Re the 'expensive' bottle of French wine thrown into the bushes. Could it be that this was brought by the killer as a peace offering and thrown away in anger by Sophie? Triggering a fight.
What vintage was the wine? Maker? and were fingerprints taken?
Nah..... It's preposterous!
Too many holes in the story, it's practically some moron on reddit looking for his 15 minutes of fame, probably the Babe Farrell's nephew.
1) Bailey commits the murder, runs to Alfie's front door....Why?? He's now linked himself to the murder scene, and made Alfie pervert the course of justice by withholding critical witness information in a murder enquiry.
2) What did Bailey expect from Alfie? A shower, nail brush, bar of soap, change of clothes perhaps?
3) So, after Alfie has calmed Bailey down and sends him on his way... He says nothing to Shirley (who is obviously as deaf as a post), and decides to let her walk straight into the gruesome sight without any warning....? Nice Guy.
4) No idea how Bailey makes it home to serve the morning tea to Jules, but he does, and is apparently unfluttered, and makes arrangements to collect some garlic from a buddy somewhere.. Alfie did a great job in steadying his nerves.
5) Meanwhile, After Alfie lets his Mrs discover the bloodbath at the bottom of the lane, they call the cops, and state they heard nor seen anything out of the ordinary during the night, early morning... Obviously, before the Gards arrive, Alfie and the traumatised Shirley make a pact to to say nothing about their distressed visitor, after all, the brutal slaying at the bottom of the lane would keep them busy enough..
6) If the Gards had known about this visit (if it occurred), it would have been on the national news the same night. They would even have coerced the Babe Farrell to say she had seen Bailey knocking on Alfie's door crying.. (and soaked in blood, carrying a block, with a hatchet stuffed in his back pocket). There is no way they would have kept this under the radar.
7) Watching one of the documentaries, Alfie seemed to hint at himself introducing Bailey to Sophie on at least one occasion, the following scene see's Bailey refuting the statement.. There seemed to be genuine animosity between them. Would Bailey really try to belittle Alfie if he had such incriminating evidence on him..?? Evidence that could put him away for life?
8) All things considered, the blogger on reddit is just a shock & awe jockey... As bizarre as this case is, we have to draw the line somewhere and stick with reality. This critical piece of information comes out 25yrs after the event? And even that was a second hand piece of gossip, from none other than the first person at the murder scene... So not only did Shirley pervert the course of justice all them years ago, but she then goes on to implicate herself six years later.
** I call BS on this one **
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