Mad stuff, dafuq is the world coming to?
It’s precisely because it’s gone beyond mere anecdotes that guidance from the Scottish DOE was required by schools in how best to approach the issue of supporting children who are transgender in schools in Scotland. I pointed out already that similar guidelines have existed in Irish schools for the last number of years, with one of the core principles being that the child’s gender identity must be respected -
There has been an increase in awareness of gender identity issues and a growing capacity to understand the issues experienced by transgender people; and in 2015 the Oireachtas passed the Gender Recognition Act (2015). A positive consequence of this increased awareness is that more young people are coming out as transgender and seeking the support they need. In the school context this growing awareness needs to be matched with accurate information and responses that are based on good practice in addressing the needs of transgender young people.
A school’s response should be holistic and integrated, where the support of the student is the key consideration in every response.
A key strategy in supporting students and preventing transphobic bullying in school is to promote a climate of acceptance and respect for all. School principals may feel that they should respond immediately with practical supports. However, it is good practice to take time with the student, and his or her parents/guardians, to find the right solutions for their particular context rather than rushing into a standard response.
This section addresses questions and issues that may arise when students who are transgender come out while at school. The following information is offered as a way of ensuring that a pupil who comes out is supported and that it is clear to the entire school community that a climate of respect and an anti-bullying culture mean that all students should be supported. Given the higher risk of transgender young people experiencing transphobic bullying the guidance is provided to support a positive school climate and culture that is supportive of difference and diversity and that prevents transphobic bullying.
Suggestions are based on good practice and offer some guidance in this area. It is noted however that the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection (Houses of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection, 2013) recommended that comprehensive guidelines be developed in this regard.
Thats from the Irish DOE guidelines here, recognising the fact that the number of children in Irish schools who identify as transgender is increasing, and they need guidelines as to how to cope with that reality.
I'm happy for the child to choose whatever pronouns it likes. I've yet to come across any adult who uses those pronouns so seems incredibly unlikely that a child will. So seems a largely irrelevant point.
I completely agree. Forcing them to conform to old fashioned anti-trabs ideas of some adults is damaging.
Do you know what messes with children's heads? Putting adult's notions on them and trying to get them to bend to our "adult" way of thinking.
Would you be happy if the child chose to use the pronouns, Zir / Zay ?
It only messes with their head to use the opposite pronouns to what they have requested.
By telling them they have to use pronouns they don't identify with is far more likely to lead to mental illness.
You should leave little children alone Chadimir.
I'd bet my house that the vast majority that are pro these new guidelines don't have children themselves.
Only if you want to "progress" to a society where there are absolutely no difference between men and women and definitions mean nothing.
Not somewhere I want to go.
Be careful what you wish for. I don't think it would be the liberal utopia you yearn for.
Change isn't always good. Agreed.
This change is good though.
The only poison is those who want to force children to use pronouns that make them unhappy.
I wasn't specifically talking about your responses to me.
In think we have managed to talk as respectfully to each other as is possible considering how at odds our outlooks are.
Your interactions with others are a little less so. I am aware its a two way street though
I don't think they understand what regressive means.
"Change" isn't always good.
This case is one such example. Poisoning the minds of children, no less.
The fact that parental consent is tossed out the window illustrates how this is nothing more than state-sponsored indoctrination.
Nor mine.. but it does feel different for some people's childhood and I guess for them its regression. Oh why must we change, oh why dammit!
again, no **** that MY evidence is anecdotal! There is evidence out there (I even offered to help you until you started getting a bit thick about it!) - you can chose to look or not - I don't really care tbh. I can tell you another anecdote about how I have read papers on the subject - but until you DYOR then you wont believe me.
It has to be said tho - another boring aspect of such conversations is the attempts to cause subterfuge and disarray by picking apart every little part until there is little merit discussing the topic at hand. I assume people are discussing things in good faith. I know I do. The ones that demand every single point be proven (who themselves, strangely, don't feel they need to do the same, or don't even request agreeing posters do the same) seem to be of a different mindset.
What's it regressing to? Doesn't feel like anything from my childhood...
It's the opposite; it's 100% regressive.
Your evidence remains anecdotal.
There was no condescension? I am only stating that if continue with what we do now, and expect the different results then I'll for sure take the bet - because its unlikely the results will change.
I have been respectful and given space to your opinions, even if I disagree with a lot of them. I cannot say I have received the same courtesy from some on here.
It's called progress and it's great to see. Hope it becomes more widely adopted.
I'm sure people would be more willing to engage with you in a productive manner if you didn't treat people who disagreed with you so condescendingly.
But fair enough, I agree we are all chasing our tails and without scope to talk more broadly, we are hamstrung to repeat ourselves.
Could you pull some of the sources from this from the article, or post the whole thing? - I wouldn't wipe my arse with that rag, never mind subscribe to it.
"Seems badly thought out to you".
However it also seems there are some contradictions in the other stuff you wrote - society wont accept, but we wont change anything etc.
My statement about the harm caused is based in evidence (papers I have read AND anecdotal, which doesn't mean anything to others, except to me because I listened to people and I chose to believe them as well as other experiences). There is research showing this as well as countless tales of people who knew from a very young age and had to suppress it.
But again - you don't see that, I do, so we go round in circles again, I really am stepping off of this - I have a ton of real stuff to do anyway lol
Ah here from the poster who thinks kids can't use pronouns...
Except there's little to no evidence to support such an assumption, when the opposite is pretty well recorded. The downsides to gender change and trans transitioning are pretty clear. The confusion due to the transition, the place of the person in society, and the emotional rollercoaster for those who actually commit to hormonal change, are well recorded... but many people prefer to focus on the wishful thinking that it will be different for them. And it could be, however, neither gender change or actual transitions are easy processes/states to exist in within western society.
Children need a stable environment to grow up in. That's generally the objective in any schooling. To provide a safe environment where they can grow into their potential, and help them along the way. But there is nothing stable about gender change. There's nothing stable about the trans movement.
I could understand this desire to provide for children to be aware of gender change and be able to do so themselves, if we knew of solid benefits in doing so. If mainstream society, had already accepted transition, and gender change (which it doesn't), if we had decades of research and evidence to show how happy people who changed gender or transitioned were (which we don't).
But for now, it seems like a badly thought out initiative without any consideration to how it will affect these children over time, and what kind of world they'll be entering...
Posters here keep referring to what four year olds do or don’t know and all the rest of it, which has very little really to do with the guidelines released by the Scottish DOE which will only apply to a limited number of schools in Scotland. It’s guidance for teachers and staff, nothing to do with the curriculum, about the best approach to provide care for children who are transgender.
Similar, not identical, but similar guidelines have already existed in Irish schools for some years now -
When you read about the entirety of what's included in this legislation, it becomes even more appalling.
Teachers asking 4-year olds what name and pronouns they want to use?
Including transgender characters in reading material and lessons?
Suggesting that children can "at any age" come out as transgender?
I just cannot understand how people can get behind this. All it can possibly to, in total, is to seed confusion among young children and, what's worse, to do so without parental consent.
This is a twisted form of state-sponsored indoctrination.
Children as young as four will be able to change their name and gender at school without their parents’ consent under new LGBT inclusivity guidelines drawn up by the Scottish Government.
A 70-page document, issued to schools north of the border on Thursday, calls on teachers not to question pupils if they say that they want to transition to live as a boy or a girl and to instead ask them for their new name and pronouns.
The controversial guidance claims that it is possible to “come out” as transgender “at any age” and that the views of young people should be respected if they do not want their parents to be informed.
Scotland’s schools have also been told that trans pupils should be able to use whatever lavatory or changing room they choose, to develop “gender neutral” uniform options, and to include transgender characters and role models in reading material and lessons.
It's what happens now (in the system you want to protect) - so if we do nothing then its a bit of a silly bet, isn't it?
But sure we can go round and round on this all day, there have been (unusually!) some interesting topics raised and I wish we had a more general thread to discus, but for me the monotony of this on is a bit much - see you all next time there is some triggering Daily Mail article!
I would wager there is a an almost zero percent chance of that being the outcome.
yeah no sh!t it's not a link - I said if I could be bothered I will help you out - I am revoking that offer because my time is important to me.
I assume you will take that to mean no evidence (your medal for winning the internet will follow shortly!) - but really its because you are too lazy to even have a cursory glance.
To address your last sentence there (quoting..arghgh!) I've said all I wan on the children part and I'm about done with this thread as its getting a touch boring.
My experience of the LGBT community and specifically the trans communities that I have been part of has been entirely different - there is no accusation that you are wrong there btw (just to be clear!) - just stating what I have experienced (and I havent met anyone in those communities outside of twitter that has been aggressive at all). I know few people that don't at least take hormones (or do you not count that as "physical transitioning")?
I'd love to discuss further the statement you make judging the superficial nature of some - just even to clarify that a bit - but its off topic and they wont reopen the Gender Identity thread.
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