Mad stuff, dafuq is the world coming to?
Basically this is saying trans people don't exist 🙄
Your post made me wonder... what is a boy to someone who has never been a boy before, and whose only experiences of gender is that as a girl? Where would they find information to frame such an understanding, and would it be accurate? Cause we all know how accurate stereotypes are.. 😂
Wouldn't it be best to confirm that someone is sure of what they feel/think before calling them a "Trans kid", ensuring that they're not simply confused about what that gender entails, and what their options are?
Who is protecting it? Society has been trying to change the perception regarding homosexuality and the public displays of that sexuality for my whole adult life.. and while there have been improvements, especially on the legal side of things, a lot of other aspects haven't changed much. It takes time for people to catch up to social change, with the diehards dying off, or people becoming personally exposed to homosexuality and realising it's not all that bad. A government initiative telling us to accept something doesn't mean that people are going to change their conditioned biases...
Km, I'm Bisexual, having had both male and female partners, and know what it's like in both worlds. I also know the suspicion/biases that many Gay/Lesbians have towards bisexuals. It takes time for change to take effect and to drip down the chain of beliefs.
In any case, to be clear, which status quo are we talking about here? Previously the status quo was a comment about Trans people.., the above quote refers to gay people.. and they're not the same thing. There can be some crossover but one is about sexuality and the other is about gender perceptions. The vast majority of my male partners or homosexual friends are not aiming to change their gender or seek any kind of physical change. They're men who like being men, and are attracted sexually to other men.
I've been waiting for that answer for some time now.
Does anyone know the answer to the question of how many genders there are?
It's nothing to do with me not liking the statement. It's just simply not true.
The child should be given a basic biology lesson and it to be explained at an age appropriate level that they are a girl and although they may feel like they are a boy, they aren't.
They should be made aware that many people feel differently about who they are but there are certain inalienable factors to their body which determines that they are a little girl.
They should be reminded that just because they are a girl, they can still take part in what was traditional "boy" activities and that boys and girls have the same opportunities, but they have to know they are still a little girl.
Why are you sticking to binary definitions?
Can you tell me how many genders there are?
Oh right.
Yes, I would not want my child to be in a school where they are told that they can choose to change from a boy to a girl if they want.
That's not nearly the same as "not wanting to learn"
You want to move schools?
Let's keep it simple and stick with binary gender definitions. That way it's not too complex and you don't have to avoid the question.
A trans kid who has an issue with their gender. Kid was born "a girl" (assigned female at birth some would say, but I know you don't like that statement")
Kid knows how they feel inside, and is sure they are a boy.
What is your proposal? Simple question.
I don't want to learn about them?
What's that supposed to mean?
Explain what you mean by what is expected of them?
Can anyone answer me as to how many genders there are?
Again tho, what is your proposal for those who do understand their gender to be different?
Just keep moving to different areas that don't have trans people or something?
Regardless if how small a number of trans people you think there are, they do exist, but you don't want anyone to even learn about them.
I didn't much care for advanced mathematics at school, but I couldn't just magic it away.
@[Deleted User]
"as men" ..+. "because it's tough to do for any kind of extended period, unless you're living in a bubble."
And is this really the status quo that we should be protecting?
It doesn't seem like it to me.
Some children are aware that their gender, or how their gender feels to them, is not in alignment with what they expect or is expected of them.
This has always been the case.
What is your proposal in this situation?
Dangerously close to straying of topic here guys.
It's about children being able to determine their "gender identity" and for schools to have to accept it and go along with it.
Let's not lose sight of the issue at hand
Yes it does throw up all kind of ludicrous stuff doesn't it.
Speaking of ludicrous - reminds me of this story and not surprisingly the BBC thought to do a report on it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53936529
So this trans man Chiyo is competing in Mr Gay UK, a beauty pageant for gay men. Chiyo's angle is that he's "breaking down the barrier's" of what's considered to be male beauty, specifically in the gay mens world.
After all the campaigning for gay rights which is *100% about men finding men's bodies sexually attractive, someone from the trans community suggests this is all wrong, attitudes must be changed. That a gay man would be so narrow minded as to be only attracted to typical male form is now a backward attitude. Have you ever heard anything as ludicrous as that and doubly so that it's only in relatively recently times that men being sexually attracted to men has become socially accepted. On the ludicrous richter scale that one would be hard to surpass.
*same for women of course
Seamus, how do you know that these things don't affect AllForIt in the slightest?
Not sure how much you care about LGBT people if you're picking noted raging homophobe Anne Widdecombe as your boards persona.
In your example, nothing had gone beyond your suspicion that someone was trans.. or am I missing something?
Now, if you acted on your suspicion, then, yes, I'd say that you would be forcing your own biases about being trans on to another person (since the person themselves wasn't aware).
I've read everything you've written on the matter... but that doesn't mean that I fully understand what you're thinking vs what I've read here. I suspect that there's a bit of a gap going on there.
I don't know the people in anyone's scenario, nor has that been the case with most scenarios presented on this thread.. but we still comment on them based on our own opinions and biases... I assumed that was a given, that we all understood and appreciated without it needing to be said.
Don't forget that the existence of trans- also has an effect to turn gay people into straight people.
For instance: if you're an otherwise gay man and transition to become a woman, it now means (they argue) that the gay man is actually a straight woman.
This is almost like conversion therapy.
@Anne_Widdecombe wrote:
And parents and teachers who go along with this premature conclusion are actively damaging the child.
How so?
@AllForIt wrote:
My point is that there absolutely is a trend of gay people being influenced to come out as some variety of trans where they wouldn't have dreamt of it otherwise. I am certain about this.
Must be nice to be so certain about things that don't affect you even in the slightest.
On the other hand, selection bias is a thing that says your certainty is wishful thinking.
In a similar vein of 'the exact same thing was said of gay people' it is remarkable how trans advocacy are saying and doing the exact same gay things as well.
On a trivial level they have appropriated the word 'queer' as in queergender. They now 'come out of the closet' and have become more 'glamorous and fabulous' adopting all that colourful stuff when in the 80's 90's that wasn't their look at all, because back then trans women would typically style themselves as conservative women and look something like a female politician or a school headmistress with a bob haircut and a female style suit. So there is certainly a rebranding of the look and feel of the transgender scene that looks remarkably the same as the gay scene. I have no doubt this is intentional and not just current fashion threads.
Less trivially this 'I knew at age 4' thing seems to be popping up all the time now in very much the same way parents of gay children used to say when that issue was discussed more often, that they knew or suspected their child was gay at age 3. I used to hear that all the time. The point was of course made to give weight to the argument that gay people were 'born this way'. Of course it's not exactly the same as trans people are now saying they knew themselves they were trans at 3+1, and 4 has become a trend. I don't think it really works though because the younger one says they feel they are in the wrong body the more likely it is they are wrong, not more likely they are right, imo.
So it would seem trans advocacy use pro gay-like arguments when it suits them so one can't be surprised when they get the same anti gay-like argument's back. But isn't it incredibly convenient to be able to say 'they said that about gays'. Suspiciously convenient. "Gays have got their rights - why don't we have ours', a quote from an interview with a transgender person I saw on the BBC website. It's doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say gays have their rights we should have the same, when the specific rights they are asking for are completely different. It's like saying women have got their abortion rights so we should have our transgender rights.
Now to your comment about influencing people to be transgender, I have observed a marked rise in gay people identifying as trans in recent years. Non-binary usually, on social media and particularly gay dating apps. So I wondered if any straight people are equally coming out as non-binary and found this...
https://www.insider.com/9-celebrities-who-identify-as-gender-non-binary-2019-6
So there you have a list of 14 celebrities who came out as either trans/non-binary/gender-fluid, and after looking at their wiki pages, 13 of them were some variety of homosexual to begin with, most infamously Sam Smith and Ellen Paige.
My point is that there absolutely is a trend of gay people being influenced to come out as some variety of trans where they wouldn't have dreamt of it otherwise. I am certain about this. And again isn't it so convenient that there you have a trend that further weaves together the gay and trans scenes.
I'm not creating a moral panic, I'm simply reporting what I see and I intend to report what I see to as many people as I can if ever the subject comes up in conversation, and here of course.
Please try to be less condescending. I don't need to be kept on point. If you don't like my responses, please feel free to ignore me.
I didn't "blatantly lie". You wanted me to reduce my responses to a singular word so I humoured you that time. I think I explained the nuance to my response subsequently. Out of the two of us, you would be more likely to be forcing the idea of gender identity onto a child. I would simply be in favour of giving them an age appropriate biology lesson and letting them know it isn't possible for a girl to actually be a boy.
I said that I would take my child out of school if it was accepted by teachers that boys and girls are interchangeable. What's that got to do with forcing anyone to do anything?
Again, I'll ask. How many genders are there?
The formula is simple. Many boys dabble in wearing girls clothes; they may be gay, they may be trans-, they may turn out to be the future World's Strongest Man.
Many teenagers dabble in wearing girls clothes. They may turn out to be straight, too. Maybe they're gay, who knows.
But to allow children, at 4-years old, to assume the certitude of knowing they are trans- is nothing short of an abomination. And parents and teachers who go along with this premature conclusion are actively damaging the child.
Let the child grow up and decide for themselves once maturity (and adolescent hormones) has arrived.
In the meantime, teach children that there are only two sexes. Leave the intellectual baggage of gender identity theory to one side.
So in my case, who is forcing and how?
Did you not read the bit where I said all suggested scenarios were possible?
And bear in mind, I'm only talking about the case I presented - I don't know the people in your scenarios, so it's not really fair to expect me to comment.
I do because you need to be kept on point. Case in point: you blatantly lied when you said i was the doing the forcing and now completely ignored the request for proof.
And you are forcing a child who questions to to stick to the traditional gender. It's been the backbone of your stance all along. You even said you'd take a kid out of school to do so!
Case closed , I've proven my point: you are the one doing the forcing and then lying about me doing it.
Of course they do. Your own example was of someone who you suspected of being trans, but they didn't know themselves.
I know people who were pushed into declaring themselves gay, who were in fact bisexual. They confided their confusion and feelings to others while growing up, and other people (teachers, family, friends) decided, for them what should happen next. They could have continued dating girls until adulthood and then dabbled with men later when they were in a better position to do so (as I did), but others took that decision away from them.. The confidants projected their own biases and interests on to others... because that's what people often do.
The simple point is that the trans topic is a strongly charged one full of controversy, and if you've spent any time at all on threads about it, you'll acknowledge how passionate (and often aggressive) advocates of it are. (yes yes, the opposite is true too).. however, there will be people out there who will pressurise, assume, and force others to declare a change of gender or some other public statement of intent because it fits with the reality they want to see.
That's even more likely the case where the subject is very young, impressionable, etc like that of a 5 year old child.
Sorry but the last line in your post comes off far more disingenuous than anything else I've seen in this thread. Nobody has been trying to force children into line one way or the other. To try to reduce the side of the argument you disagree with down to that is bad form.
There's nothing wrong with gently encouraging a child to embrace their biological sex. That doesn't mean that you have to force them to conform to gender stereotypes. Keep the dialogue open, if they truly are trans it's not just going to go away.
I would assume anyone would want to be sure that their child is trans before starting them on that difficult journey (emphasis on their).
I'm not forcing a child into anything. I am telling a child the very very basics of reality. What gender role do you think I am enforcing?
How many genders are there?
And with all due respect, you don't get to dictate how many words are in my response.
That may be your argument over the last few days. It certainly hasn't been mine.
My argument was, and remains, that boys should not be told that they can be a girl by simply feeling it (and vice versa)
You may call me a dinosaur but if being a dinosaur means that I refuse to believe that you can change from a man to a woman, then I'll gladly "identify" as a tyrannosaurus rex.
There is no similarity to the past treatment of gay people and my assertion that boys are boys, girls are girls. Not sure why you keep trying to muddy the water with that.
And as for choosing your gender? How many genders are there exactly?
It's not about forcing children into line. Its about teaching them the basics of biology and also being a parent. Parents (decent parents anyway) don't always just let children choose for themselves.
Yes on the regressive stereotypes. I thought we were supposed to be moving away from the whole notion of 'roles' anyway. Isn't that what feminism is partly about.
The boys playing with dolls thing as an indicator of anything is beyond silly of course. To a child they are only objects to play with and a learning experience which is what play is partly about.
I often wonder if maybe some parents go OTT on forcing very young children into roles and perhaps some children recognize it instinctively and react against it. I mean especially when a child is very young that is when parents most do the blue is for a boy and pink is for a girl thing. Stuff like decorating a room in pink sparkly wallpaper or whatever. My little princess kinda thing. And then that reaction is misunderstood by both parents and child. 4 is an age you'd think this could begin to happen.
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