Mad stuff, dafuq is the world coming to?
Because it's a social movement with serious effects on peoples long term psychological and physical well-being... and has serious connotations for how society develops.
And yes, when we consider genuine/traditional trans people, the numbers involved are tiny. However, the numbers of people (and the range of classifications) has expanded considerably over the last decade, as has their impact on society. When such a small number of people can enforce a range of changes on the majority.. then, questions should be asked... especially when people like yourself, seek to stifle criticism or debate by throwing around terms like bigotry.
And it is most definitely not open season on trans people. You make it sound like they're completely defenseless, without individual rights of their own, etc.
I could go on, but there's little point. The manner of your post already judged anyone who disagreed with you on this topic. In any case, there are enough dedicated trans topics. This one is about Gender and small children.
Which is grand... No, seriously. I'd support that myself. Except that wasn't your objection that I quoted and responded to.
No, you didn't because you have consistently sidestepped the issue that any education about pronouns and gender change to four year olds must involve in telling them that it's perfectly acceptable for them to do it. In spite of repeated posts of mine pointing the adult input in showing them about these issues, they're promoting them to the kids. That's why I gave up the first time... because you ignored the points I made, and the associations between what you said. But yeah.. it's all one big lie.
As for the second supposed lie, you said "There have been children declaring their gender looong before the vast vast majority of parents would have even known it was a possibility. Do you think parents in the 80s were encouraging their kids to be gender non-conforming?". That's a statement seeking validity for the declaration of gender by children, and that children should be informed of such an option. Hence a request for evidence before you asked for evidence from me... which you had done earlier in the thread to another poster. Ahh well, I guess I should have known you'd bull your way to do it again.
No doubt that you'll sidestep again.
You have very little experience of kids if you think little boys penises are hidden away... since many will walk around without their pants, or take them out to play with (no different from having a car or a doll) when they get bored. Hell, young boys are prone to take them out so they can show off their pissing skills... and to test boundaries, such as not showing it off in public.
But I guess my earlier question about sly digs has been answered. Fine.
First of all, I've no idea who or what Eskimohuht is.
Second, the idea of a slippery slope is a legitimate one. Once one hurdle is accepted, who knows what will next follow. That's not just my view, but the view of pretty much many people asking this question.
Well firstly it's not promoting anything.
What is your evidence that respecting a child's requested pronouns will lead to any consequences around their appreciation of material facts? Do you think it will lead to them claiming the sky is green? Or is it something you just made up.
Eskimohunt is a fellow Anne Widdecombe fan whose profile recently disappeared and seems to share all the same opinions as you. Especially the slippery slope arguemnt you just made. But maybe all Anne fans think alike.
It's a slippery slope.
If the environment around which a child develops encourages the idea that, because they periodically wear a dress, that they are a woman, that is damaging. It promotes to the child the idea that what they believe is a material fact.
Who the hell is Eskimohuht?
Meanwhile in the real world away from the absurd debates on social media and morons on boards. Real people, indeed children realise their birth gender doesn't match their internal gender. Often , yes folks as early as four.
But it's a tiny minority amongst a tiny minority of people who are transgender.
Transgender people are a very small minority but yet they are still targeted by the bigots often with the compliance of certain 'celebrities' and others who under the cover of 'reasonable debate' and 'freedom of speech' demonise them.
It's no longer acceptable in this society to be homophobic or racist or sexist or whatever but it is open season on trans people.
Why is that?
But what I am saying is about focusing on what the child is saying and doing and look at what supports they need. Thats all.
Again nobody has said anything about changing sex. Simply using requested pronouns and preferred toilets. Why do you need to make up stuff to make a point.
By the way are you Eskimohuht's new profile?
A 4-year old?
Respect the thoughts of changing sex?
What were we all doing at 4-years old?
To even think about changing sex would mean understanding internal biology, social history, and so on. The idea that children, so close to the age of non-existence, have enough understanding of these matters that we warrant "guidance" - that superbly awful term - is not bordering on the extreme, but is the extreme.
I didn't say sex was a belief. I said you have beliefs about it.
You've yet to provide any evidence either way about the number of 4 year olds requesting pronoun changes. Without evidence you cannot say it's a small number. I am making no claims about the numbers by the way.
I also never said children have "beautifully lucid" comprehension of the topic. Pretty sure i said the opposite.
But they are the ONLY ones who have any knowledge of their internal thoughts. And we should respect those thoughts not dismiss them like a 1960s children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard parent.
I never once made any such assertion that you have claimed. Second time you've made up stuff that I've said. Please quote it. Though when I asked for a simple quote of what you claimed I said previously you said "sigh I give up".
I assume you're going to avoid having your lie exposed again by avoiding my request to quote the assertion you claim I made.
Children's thoughts on who are boys and girls is emphatically NOT based on biology. The main distinguisher at that age would be genitals and most children don't see each other's genitals. What a bizarre claim to make.
Sex isn't a "belief"; it's a biological reality.
There is no evidence that 4-year old children are requesting pronoun changes.
It's the absolute summit of absurdity.
Most adults cannot accurately differentiate sex from gender, yet you appear to expect children to have a beautifully lucid comprehension not only of the topic, but also of the ability to switch between genders and/or sex.
It doesn't matter for the purposes of this guidance and debate. Whatever your beliefs about sex and gender are, the guidance simply states that a child should have their requested pronouns used. This applies whether or not you and I agree about what sex and gender are.
Children will believe anything that authority figures tell them.
If parents, teachers, and other authority figures that surround the child tell them that they are of the opposite sex, don't be surprised when the child follows the lead!
Children love feeling special, having their own label and uniqueness. Whether it's pretending to be Spiderman or dressing up, there is an attractive novelty to the idea of being different. Gender identity is no different. This is simply not a matter that should be introduced at this age. And whatever age it is brought up, it should be the parents - not the school or state, that evaluate the child.
Spot on.. and to explain such concepts in a way for the children to understand, would mean promoting it as something cool for them to do. It would increase the appeal, and therefore suggest that children should make such a claim... especially if their teachers or parents are supportive of the idea.. which would extend to other children in the class too.
It's advertising for trans issues at children. Rather than wait for society (adults) to accept them, those advocating the movement have decided to target children. Long before we know the long term effects of such ideas on the minds of children or even teens. Or whether such teachings increase the desire for actual physical changes, which brings about a whole host of other associated problems, which, again, have little in the way of real research about them. It's all so bloody short-sighted.
You said it right.
Children should be children, and not consider matters that teenagers and adults can consider in sufficient detail.
Throwing questions of pronouns and changing sex to children is, to me at least, bordering on the abusive. You should never confuse children at this stage of their life. What adults tell children has serious long-term consequences.
This is absolutely about foisting gender identity theory, which is relatively among even the adult population, onto 4-year old children.
It's morally wrong. Let children be children, but allow them to evolve into these complex social issues once they have developed the cognitive ability and maturity to do so.
If adults cannot get their head around gender identity questions, how on Earth can we expect children to discuss these matters at length with primary school teachers?
It's beyond ridiculous. Scotland should be ashamed of itself for introducing this ghastly guidance.
You suggested that there were children who did declare their gender (in opposition to social norms regarding gender/sex). So, yeah, you did make the assertion that it happens enough times for such a bill like this one to be justified.
haha critical thinking? You really want to start trading sly digs? I can easily flip that one right back at you considering your strong views in advocating the trans movement on most boards threads.
They (kids) will indeed be aware of pronouns of boy/girl, and the most basic of understanding of what that represents. They'll know it in terms of pure biology. Will they know that a boy could and should be called a girl, if he wants to be? Nope. That will come from teachers or parents who want that agenda to be played out. It's a disgusting thing to do to any child. At least teenagers and adults have had some time to come to terms with their bodies, and society in general before being called to consider such issues. Children should be given an environment where they can learn, not one that introduces concepts that will likely create a great degree of confusion.
This is where the flimsy house of cards falls down.
I don't know if you're deliberately conflating sex with gender or not here. The two are not the same.
Sex is not "assigned at birth". The biological sex is determined and documented.
Gender identity is a social construction. What defines the stereotype of "womanhood" today is not the same as "womanhood" in the 16th century.
Nobody said we must assume all 4 year olds who request a pronoun change are trans and will persist into adulthood. Just that we use their requested pronouns.
A teacher who uses requested pronouns for a child can absolutely believe that the child is still the sex/gender they were assigned at birth. Nobody has to change their beliefs on material reality.
You've misinterpreted.
We can entertain the child, but not accept the utterance as material fact.
Parents know that Santa Claus is fake, but entertain it for the child's sake. If the child persisted about Santa Claus beyond the age of 14, I'm confident parents would intervene.
Same principle with gender identity. Boys can often dress up as women, without actually having gender dysphoria or wanting to change sex.
Furthermore, I believe children understand the difference between boys and girls / he and she; but to introduce the idea of changing sex / pronouns, at the age of 4, must involve the ideas being introduced to the children via adults. Children do not, and cannot, think of those specific ideas for themselves at 4-years old.
Maybe you don't respect a child's view on ANY matter. But I do. And as experts on their own internal feelings I absolutely respect their views.
And there's a major contradiction in what you say. There is no Santa yet you will not correct a child on this and allow their erroneous belief to persist. That goes against material reality.
What you really seem to mean is that you will correct a child only of it suits you and aligns with your beliefs. You're perfectly entitled to do so with your own kids but let's not pretend you have a principle other than wanting everyone to grow up to agree with you.
No, because we don't respect a child's view on Santa Claus or any other matter.
We entertain the child, but not actively encourage what they believe to be a material fact.
Parents should decide this, not teachers - and definitely not the government.
And nobody has made those connections apart from you and others arguing against that. Nobody has said each child who asks to be referred to by certain pronouns will or must persist along a path leading to hormones or surgery or anything. Simply that a child who wants to be referred to by he/she will have their request respected. If they want to go back to the original pronouns the next day that will also be respected.
Big difference between a child understanding he/she, and understanding the concept of changing their pronouns because they want to change sex at 4-years old.
Why would the onus be on me to provide evidence that it is not miniscule. You are the one making a definitive positive statement (that it is miniscule), and therefore the onus is on you to provide evidence. I explicitly said to Anne that I didn't know the numbers. And you are saying the onus is on me to prove that the numbers are something I never said they were.....
Just goes to show how this debate can twist someones critical thinking faculties.
And children are very aware of pronoun usage. Do you have kids or nieces/nephews? If so refer to any aged 4/5 or up as he/she in opposition to what they're usually referred to and watch their reaction. I guarantee they will pull you up on it instantly.
The guidance proposes that teachers should effectively go along with what the child says - and not inform parents.
That's not what teachers should be obliged to do. They should inform parents, and let the parents decide how to proceed.
If a child doesn't ask their teacher to use certain pronouns then this guidance will have no effect on them. If they do it will help them. There's no negative effects.
Yes, develop their own very limited ideas about gender. But the distinction and supposed importance of pronouns? The idea that it's good or possible for them to "change" their gender?
For that, the options and context would need to be taught to the children... and that suggests the pushing of an agenda.
The numbers of children of those ages in the 80s who would have declared their gender in opposition of their biology would have been minuscule. And, yes, the onus would be on you to provide evidence to say otherwise. And if the numbers were minuscule, any increase in numbers (nowadays) would be due to external influences... ie advocates of the Trans movement or parents involved in such things. Not the children themselves.
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