So how would you react if people come here, contribute nothing, and only take from the system via government money? Don't be so naive to think there's not at least a few of these people knocking around the place
The gas thing is that we already have exposure to multiculturalism from the numbers of foreign students who come here to study, or the people who come here to work under limited visas, staying for a few years, and then moving on to another country.
But that's not enough. Nope. There is a need for us to decrease the overall percentage of the population that is white. That's the goal here. There's little consideration given to the largest portion of migrants, being Eastern Europeans, but there should be more from non-white nations. As has been mentioned before, there's little desire for multiculturalism to be established in non-western nations. No movement to expect these other countries to reduce their own immigration policies, to allow westerners to live there easily, and be supported to the same extent as migrants get from moving here.
I sometimes wonder if the people who advocate multiculturalism so much, have some kind of contempt for predominately white nations and/or culture that comes from traditionally white nations.
In any case I don’t think the world would end up a homogeneous blob, but rather I take a different view to your argument that we would end up with no distinct cultures.
Irish culture and traditions and values, just to take one example, has endured in spite of centuries of immigration, emigration, and so on. The thing is, if you or I were asked to define what is meant by Irish culture, we’d likely come up with two different collections of ideas. Different blends if you will…*
That’s really the objective so to speak of my supporting multicultural societies. Not because it condemns immigrants to live in shìt, plenty of Irish people living in shìt already, but because different perspectives can often inspire unique perspectives, only of course if they aren’t holed up in DP centres and what have you, but rather given a real opportunity to contribute to society, instead of being written off as only coming into the country to take advantage of our ever so generous welfare system.
*That train of thought while it has always been something I’ve argued, it may be being influenced today by a whiskey I was made aware of it’s existence this morning (still arguing with myself as to whether I should order a bottle 😂) -
20% born abroad, do you presume they are not Irish?
the world will mix together, but people need to feel part of something, so pretty sure that people will always have different cultures.
So why is the magic number of 20% is ok? You believe 30% and above is a problem, because you just think that!
I don't see any issue with 30/40/50 % of the population being different nationalities. I don't care what nationality people are. I only care that people contribute something and don't just take.
I embrace multiculturalism IN SMALL NUMBERS. I think having 20% of the population born abroad is enough multiculturalism to get a flavour of the cultures of the world. Once you get to 30/40/50% then I believe you erode the cohesion of a society and end up with an amorphous blob of a society. This is not science, just my own opinion.
People who have no limit to multiculturalism, I don't understand their view - what if the whole world mixes with each other and we end up with no distinct cultures. Is that a good thing? Is that "progressive"?
Yet more personalised insults. You have no idea what I'm thinking so address my post not what you think is in my head. Disgraceful you are let away this time after time.
So you agree that original amendment was a cabinet and electoral mistake not some drive towards multicultural politic right?
"At least we'll have better footballers..."
Maybe not.
Who mentioned conspiracy? You did, nobody else. And again point --- country mile --- you. You have quite an amazing capacity to read into posts what you want to read and then think it passes muster as reasoned debate. The point was when it was put to them on the back of pregnancy passport seekers taking the piss the Irish electorate overwhelmingly voted to remove the Jus soli loophole in our constitution as a consequence of the GFA.
Someone on boards once said; "Aye. Never ascribe conspiracy to something when incompetence is by far the more likely."
The legislation that created that loophole was an oversight by the cabinet of the day in agreeing the wording of the constitutional amendment. And was overlooked by the population when voting despite being highlighted as a risk in the referendum pamphlet published prior to the vote.
"The new Article 2 will give a constitutional right of citizenship to anyone born in Ireland. This will make it very difficult to change the laws on citizenship and it may prevent the enactment of necessary laws to regulate immigration."
I seem to recall it was actually a Chinese woman's case that kicked that off, but your point remains. If we hadn't had that birthright loophole, one that no other country in Europe had, our current multicultural Ireland would look quite different. That it was put to a referendum was a little surprising, but I'd bet the farm the Irish electorate won't be given a similar choice again. It was one of the most clear cut outcomes of any Irish referendum and that was during the "ah sure it's grand" Celtic tiger.
which has what to do with Irish citizens being born overseas exactly?
Overall the ‘new’ Irish add value to the country and far more value than many ‘old’ Irish who have a sense of entitlement to public services.
Outside of East Asians of the non EU migrant groups their rate of unemployment and social services expenses are significantly higher than the native Irish. As Enricoh pointed out with [trigger warning] facts, just over one third of our entire rent allowance payments alone go to non EU nationals. In some quarters we've essentially imported more of an underclass to add to the existing one, with the added "race" element. Joy of joys. That always goes well... So your contention is a nonsense. Fandymo has blown holes in your multinational languages argument and with [trigger warning] actual real world examples. The migrant workers in the food industry are in the vast majority of cases from the EU and many are seasonal. And as Fandymo also pointed out long before we got a sniff of this "multiculturalism" Ireland's tables were not lacking on food. Indeed we were the most food safe nation in Europe.
I also recall before the referendum in 2004 there was plenty of Africans coming here in the final stages of pregnancy so the nipper could get an Irish passport and the folks could stay on here. Anchor babies I believe the term was. Anyway paddy got sick of getting scammed and put an end to it in the referendum!
Come on now the thread is about Ireland and multiculturalism and even if it wasn't no one has yet presented a single data point to suggest that the vast majority of immigrants do not integrate into their host society. So all your pleas to look at specific examples do not take away from what I said that the vast majority of immigrants to Germany France and Belgium do integrate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Can you then explain why you think I should not talk about all immigrants to Ireland when discussing Multiculturalism in this country?
Are you suggesting that only Muslims contribute to multiculturalism in Ireland and all other immigrants are not part of Irish Multicultural society. What are they then?
Ah yes the old reliable - the food, the different clothes and now it seems the music.
FFS what a crock of shyte.
And here we have another one of the old gotos thrown in - the mention of immigrants.
Lets make sure we say immigrants so that we can lump in the Poles, Americans, Brazilians, British, etc who usually integrate very well and have come here due to free travel areas or on valid visas with those with no visas, little education, questionable backgrounds and most often an unwillingness to integrate.
Why not add in the numbers linked to ISIS, al-qaeda, Boko Haram, Ansar al-Sharia, Hamas, Al-Shabaab ?
Ah but sure they are only less than maybe half a million fighters.
But then add in all the supporters because after all these guys don't operate in a vacuum.
Remember how much support terrorists got in Molenbeek.
Here is interesting fact for you.
Belgian police have found 51 organisations with links to terrorism links in Moleenbeek.
And the 102 organisations with links to crime.
Why don't you remind the Belgians of the pluses of multiculturalism.
Even if you discount the hardcore islamists as a few million, most of the islamic world has values and outlooks incompatible to modern western secular societies.
Anytime anyone asks about secular democracies in the muslim world the usual refrain is what about Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia with their massive muslim the massive populations.
But of course those chirping in with those countries don't bother mentioning about the rise of fundamentalism and conservative islam in those countries never mind the fact that in some areas of those countries outside of the large urban westernised centres there has always been more conservative islam in operation.
In northeast Malay Peninsula you have the conservative Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party (PAS) whilst over in Indonesia hard-line groups like the Islamic Defenders Front have been active for twenty years, often carrying out vigilante violence in many parts of the country against people and groups they accused of doing immoral activities.
Yes in these countries hardline groups haven't attained national power but they do wield power and influence in certain parts of these countries.
If they can't afford to provide for their family then they should be deported. Why would you move somewhere you cannot afford? Shows that the staff member is wreckless, unable to forward plan and not the smartest at making decisions. If I move to Foxrock and pay my months rent and deposit and then can't afford any more, should the state prop me up for making an ill-informed move??
Edit: That goes for EU citizens too. It is actually legal to repatriate an EU citizen from your country if they cannot support themselves. Won't see that happening in soft touch Ireland though.
So you embrace multiculturalism then?
How many legal migrants live here with no skills, no English or no desire to integrate, do we know?
Again!
foreign born does not mean that they're not irish. No matter how often you try to say it does.
there are plenty of Irish people that were born in a different country.
Thats hardly fair Enricoh!! Using facts!!
Health Service - Nothing to do with "multiculturalism". These people are hired on contracts to work here. We have visa's for the extent of their stay. This, as stated multiple times on the thread is fine. We also have quite a sizeable amount of Irish HCA's, Nurses, Doctors and Consultants.
Multi-nationals and tax revenues - We have the entire EU for that. And generally, multinationals want college educated graduates with EU languages.
Apple, https://jobs.apple.com/en-ie/search?location=ireland-IRL&page=1, all non-English speaking jobs are looking for European or Nordic languages.
Amazon, https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?offset=0&result_limit=10&sort=relevant&distanceType=Mi&radius=24km&latitude=53.34807&longitude=-6.24827&loc_group_id=&loc_query=Ireland&base_query=&city=&country=IRL®ion=&county=&query_options=& , all non-English speaking jobs are looking for European with 4 vacancies for Turkish speakers.
Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/careers/jobs/?offices[0]=Dublin%2C%20Ireland&is_leadership=0&page=1&is_in_page=0 , 15 out of 174 non EU language vacancies.
Google, https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?company=Google&company=Google%20Fiber&company=YouTube&employment_type=FULL_TIME&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrcGlucXO8gIV0N_tCh3b_wwzEAAYASAAEgJ1OfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&hl=en_US&jlo=en_US&location=Dublin,%20Ireland&q=&sort_by=relevance&src=Online%2FHouse%20Ads%2FBKWS_Cloud_EMEA , seeking EU and Nordic languages.
Food - Laughable. Did we starve in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s when we had very little immigration?? Strangely no, food still made it to our table. Obesity levels were also a lot lower.
Some immigrants add value, they are the ones who are skilled, educated and over here on working visa's. Others are here for the free houses, free medical care, free dental care, free money, free education, free, free, free. The land of milk and honey.
shhhhh... that doesn't suit the narrative that anyone who wants zero tolerance to illegal immigration is a dirty far-right racist.
Fair enough, but skilled workers don't come alone. Case in point that tragic kurdish family killed last week. The father was a skilled worker but nothing was said about what his wife did, except raise their young child. Ireland is a western society that seems to expect both adults to work full time and pays salaries to that extent.
If the partner of a foreign worker is unskilled should they be allowed to live with the skilled worker? If the income of the skilled worker can't support the family by itself should they receive social benefits or be deported?
Those are all great examples of LEGAL Immigration. Nobody has a problem with skilled, hardworking, taxpaying immigrants. They add a lot to the country.
What I have a problem with are the undocumented, illegal migrants who have no skills, no English and no desire to integrate.
I keep hearing about the hard working immigrants and deco and Tasha the sponger. However immigrants are twice as likely to require the government to pay the rent. Maybe the newer ones will be less of a drain, eh?
Last year, I decided to ask the Department of Social Protection what percentage of rent supplement was paid out to non-Irish EU nationals, and non-EU nationals.
As at February of last year, the figure was 35pc. This is a remarkable total. Remember, 17pc of the population is "foreign-born", so immigrants are over-represented in the figures by two to one.
Exactly Happydays look at Britain to see what happens when you go full racist and blame everything on the foreigners!
As usual you will reframe any purported question you put so it becomes meaningless and unanswerable and avoidable by you.
But I take it that's a big no from you that you cant list any positives for Irish society. Thanks Wibbs
Health service - doctors and nurses from far and wide who in hospitals up and down the country look after the sick.
Multi- nationals and tax revenues - availability of people with different languages and talent not available in Ireland attract in investment which funds public services and grows our economy.
Food - migrant workers are essential to our food industry. Puts food on our tables and exports from country across the world.
I directly answered your question on the White migrant population. I didn't say European immigration was excluded. I did say it's interesting and pretty clear that when multiculturalism is discussed as a policy and positive it's strange that the more exotic the minority the more attention it gets and by some measure with it. etc...
But as usual you will reframe any purported question you put so it becomes meaningless and unanswerable and avoidable by you.
As for your other question: Perhaps you can give us a positive for Irish society with all your own caveats in place? Nebulous as usual. What are you talking about here? Positives of multiculturalism for Irish society? Positives of Irish society itself? Though I'm refreshed you may consider some exist, or that Irish society itself exists. Oh BTW if you're hoping to score some point or other about difficulty nailing down the positives of Irish society, you would actually my reinforcing my points about the difficulty of nailing down the positives of multiculturalism. So this should be fun...
No other poster than you has mentioned black panther in this thread. That's a casebook strawman right there ⬆️
You don't like it when I talk globally about Muslims but you making unsubstantiated points about USA neighbourhoods in relation to Irish multiculturalism is ok.
🤪🌎️🤣
Why the curiosity? It's been said multiple times on this thread that skilled workers and people here to work and earn their way are more than welcome. It's the scroungers and spongers that are not wanted. Is this really not getting through to people.
Or, the more likely scenario, are people just ignoring this to point score and make inane comments like above??
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wc.vanillicon.com/v2/c9236bc67b608c3603b1ed089c896282.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w9.vanillicon.com/v2/9c6ef39403f5dc93bd4b9e77a11c1821.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w6.vanillicon.com/v2/6b0748b4741870baaad828fe92174b3c.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w2.vanillicon.com/v2/20f4606d019ca0b240328ff30d91e82b.svg)
