Spot on usualstripes.... 👍
Decent post but i do have to have to argue with one of your points that Cody is getting the most out of his players.
This cant be right as more often than not we haven't afforded our scoring forwards the advantage of pinging a low ball out wide in front of them to take a relatively easy score. The question to ask yourself is this. Would you rate corks full forward line better than ours yesterday? I would reckon given the right advantageous ball in front of them they would be every bit as clinical as most full forward lines in the country but we don't consistently do this and that's part of our game play. If we have long puck outs then we have to be able to contest these but generally its would be 60/40 in favour of the defender. Our link up play between our half backs and half/full forward lines is crucial here and the bottom line is we just don't do it nearly enough. This comes down to what we do in training and how we are coached. I watched Eoin Murphy yesterday waving away to our corner backs, letting them know it wasnt going short. There are times to land it long but not when we are being bulldozed every time. Its heartbreaking to continually watch it. Give the inside lads a chance for gods sake and let them sink or swim. Im sure we will be swimming far more if we give it right to them and you will see then how the likes of limerick get big scores every match.
People will cling to that as a reason for hope but we've been playing like that since the league in 2018 and every time the pressure comes on in championship we just ignore it. And while I've been critical of Murphys long puck outs in the past I'll also say that in the second half of our games a lot of our backs tend to turn their backs on him and don't want the ball
There's an analysis of all the things we do wrong like this after all of our games... how is it possible that management are not picking up on this or not learning from their mistakes?... Its unforgiveable really.
Good analysis here of what Kilkenny should be doing instead of long balls over and over again.
The end result yesterday wasn’t really a surprise, realistically we could easily have been beat by Wexford, and were lucky we didn’t have to meet Galway.
In the first 45 mins, KK were the better team. In that time, we missed ~2-06 from easy enough chances, with approx. another 1-5 from tougher ones.
Had we got those scores, it would have been a different game when Cork came into it, as KK tired and also due to personal changes, in the later 30mins of the game.
We could have moved people around different yesterday and changed the puckout strategy, all of which could have won us the game, but your changing about a few items on an average side to try and win this, when lets be fair, that’s as good as we are, and Cork are better, while still being average to good at the moment. (That will change as the younger players come through).
And yes we found it harder to get frees and yes we were done by the ref at the end, …but we’d only be papering over cracks, we’d have got hammered in the final. But look at that side, its genuinely average to poor, at best, and to be fair, is the weakest Kilkenny team since probably the late 80s, and probably one of the weakest ever.
We will probably never see the likes of the greatest team ever again, and the certainty of winning that came with that team, but KK teams that went before were always capable of winning the All-Ireland. This team is simply not good enough to win an All-Ireland, and is a good few good players away.
I would put Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Tipp, Cork, Clare ahead of us and Wexford on a par and Dublin behind us. And we get further in the championship as we're in Leinster.
Right now we have dropped from one end of the scale to the other, the side are, average to poor. Wing forwards are the best wing backs we have, relying on players in the mid 30’s to carry this team. Our younger lads are poor (they may be honest, and give their all, but that doesn’t change there ability). Players who beat Limerick in the minor All-Ireland final have dropped away to nothing while that limerick team is hammering everything in front of it at senior.
The players from 28 yrs old to the youngest, are just not near the required levels of talent and drive that’s required for intercounty players. The players coming through are similar, and not having won an U-21 since 2008, and a minor since 2014, is haunting us now. We don’t have the talent and we are not producing it, and worse still, I genuinely don’t think we have the county board who realize the scale of the problem, how underperforming the underage development squad setup is or how poor the management at underage is, to be able to deliver what’s needed in the modern game.
We are at least a decade behind where we need to be, and have yet to admit we have a problem. A number of people who are criticized as ‘naysayers’ have been saying on here for years that this crash is here and getting worse, but falling on deaf ears and replied too with scorn.
But just look where we are, and about to fall off another cliff, when TJ, Walter, Hogan. Buckley leaves.
To put it simply, we are nowhere near good enough, our players coming through are nowhere near good enough, and its not looking like we will be anytime soon either, based on how our underage compare to other counties. Go to the game or ask anyone which counties are streets ahead of everyone else at development squad and underage levels and you’ll hear – Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Tipp, and most likely in that order.
And Cork in hurling, is going to be like Dublin are in the football, once they have a development system working well, they will have huge conveyor belt of talent based simply on the numbers in that county, that we will never compete with, unless we get it working now.
In relation to Cody, yes he has his limitations, but he has proven over the years if you give him talent he will make it deliver. He currently has, with some exceptions, average and poor players, who he is getting the most out of, to be fair to him.
Everyone has limitations, and his are probably in the area of making subtle changes during the game to sneak/rob a game, or pull it out of the fire, but that is where we are with this team.
Should he go, I think he should. He’s given everything to hurling and to Kilkenny hurling and has changed the way the game is played, and the honesty to which players are picked and continued to be picked.
It is he, who has the changed the way hurlers are viewed in an intercounty system. Nobody is a star, nobody is beyond being dropped, which has seeped across the GAA world and is emulated by most managers now. He changed the expectation of KK players, from being hungry for the win, to hunger being an expectation from his teams everyday they go out.
That is Cody’s doing, and solely him.
He doesn’t have the players, and I do think he is getting the max out of them. But I don’t think people will realize that until he is gone. Someone might come along a cajole and out tactic a team to win an all-ireland, but we have dropped a long way if we are relying on that, rather than tactics alongside having Quality Players.
A Kilkenny loss makes Motivator happier than a Waterford win. It's quite sad really.
Funnily enough, as a Waterford man I usually call him a lot worse during games. There were quite a few people seated around us yesterday calling him a clown yesterday (among other things) which is why the name stuck with me. Cody’s popularity and god like status disappears quite quickly among the Kilkenny fans when an L goes down beside the team name in the paper.
We usually get a visit from motivator on this thread after a loss... I wouldn't take any notice.
See, now, as someone who has been moaning about our management team for a few years I actually agree with a lot of what you say but you just ruin the whole thing and expose your bias by calling him a clown.
Also to say our forwards were cleaned out for 70 minutes is complete nonsense considering after about 45 mins we were 19 15 up having hit about 7 or 8 bad wides and butchered at least 1 if not 2 half goal chances. In the first half we actually played quite well in the main. Cork then made a move which meant PW could no longer mark the space in our back line and the whole thing went to **** very very quickly. From where I was it looked like they just committed another man forward but I can't say that with any certainty.
Our management were not capable of reversing the change in momentum, something which has now been happening for a long long time.
I never said it shouldn’t be discussed, I said Kilkenny people have short memories. Kilkenny fans have been booing players for years, just because fans did it today and you were beaten it’s an issue all of a sudden? I don’t like it and it’s not in keeping with the game but it is what it is. I saw Kilkenny fans nearly crying because Cork fans were waving them out with a minute or two minutes left in extra time. Another silly thing to be bitter over. If you can’t take it, don’t give it.
Anyway, back to the match. I’ve never seen a more brain dead puckout strategy from a Kilkenny team. There looked to be no plan whatsoever either from the forwards or the backs. Time after time Cork players won big high booming balls that came down on top of them. Why was it persisted with? It was miraculous Kilkenny were still in the game despite getting the forwards cleaned out for 70 minutes. As an outsider looking in, the whole thing is gone stale and has been stale for a couple of years. If I was a panel member yesterday I’d be walking away today. How many players that underperformed in 70 minutes were brought back on in extra time? If I was after bursting my arse all year training and dancing to that clowns merry tune only to be deemed not good enough to get on ahead of a fella that already had his chance and didn’t cut the mustard, I wouldn’t be bothered going back again. I never saw Cody doing that before and it looked like the last act of a desperate man.
Why do you think there should have been a replay?
Personally I'd prefer to have it over on the day. The conditions are the same for both and they have 6 subs they can make.
Huge credit due to the players for giving every last ounce and drop. One thing that is always guaranteed with Kilkenny teams.
We slipped up by not dosing Billy Ryan with lots more ball. He had Downey beaten all ends up. I can't understand all the drooling over how well Downey played, it's being totally overstated. He won a couple of high balls near the end when we were desperately going long but for most of the game he got cleaned. Overall, not a bad year. Won the league and Leinster and drew an All Ireland semi final with a lot of new/establishing players and a new style of play. It's amazing how people want the baby thrown out and all. Sure there are lots of room for improvement, speed, overall fitness and goal getting being three in particular.
On a better note, I was at one of the U13 sessions on Saturday and I have to say there is top class work being done here. Players were being taught the stick passing, support play game and were really learning a lot as the session progressed. One coach running the activities and others giving personal feedback to players on runs to make, choices with the ball etc. Might take a while but we could see benefits in time here.
Joey deserves immense credit for not walking away. Been a fan for a long time, speaking up when people were all over him in comments. He's one loyal SOB! Whatever he does I wish him the best. Shame no club Championship last year.
Richie Hogan treated poorly IMO. Some of the substitutions were as mind boggling as sending puckout after puckout into the same 10² meter area when we were winning NONE of them.
I can deal with a loss but it's a lot harder when it seems like your management are your worst enemy. We stopped doing the things that were working for us & reverted to a losing strategy ...not for the first time. nor the 2nd.
Congrats to Cork. Hoping you get over the line so Horgan can get a well deserved Celtic Cross. But as Nicky B. said in a very good post match interview. Sport is not fair nor is it meant to be.
Thought it wrong to not have a replay. Anyway. Looking forward to club hurling anyway. Hopefully they will keep up with the streaming of games now that crowds are back.
By choice absolutely. I've never said or felt Cody should go but how and why they could just lump ball over TJ only to have it immediately returned was just maddening. Conor Delaney was an absolute disaster of a decision. The decision, not the player. He was absolutely skinned. That's the kind of thing that can hurt a fellas confidence. Think Henry is the one to take the mantle. The way Ballyhale were able to mix long & short play under him was impressive. After he get Thomastown over the line this year 🤞🏼 I'd love to see him come in. Who knows.
This one man show of Cody ruling the roost over everything in Kilkenny has to stop also. Destroying Kilkenny hurling.
Lads.
Forget about the booing comments. We know ourselves that it's not sports like behaviour. We should all wish both teams the best of luck in the final and we should now get on with the club scene and hopefully the county board and management will look at where we are at in matches and admit we are not going to be successful with the style of play we use. Its fairly straight forward to at least admit its not working.
Limerick Fans were at the same thing on saturday.
The Final - The great Irish Boo off!
Cork deserved to win - they had better individual performances - Downey, Horgan, O'Flynn to name a few and played better hurling, moving the ball well up the field and adding some variation, sometimes long, playing it low into the corners a few times and had some real pace up front. KK play more of a battling style, a bit less creative and the way hurling is gone they'll have to change their ways a bit in that regard.
Fair enough, though I didn't interpret it as implying it shouldn't be discussed. I took it as straightforward "whataboutery?".
Of course, but since that opinion seems to be suggesting that certain topics shouldn't be discussed, i provided some alternatives to him
Just on your last paragraph, surely someone posting their own alternative opinion is a valid action too?
What's being discussed here is the booing of a free taker every single time they take a free or 65 and not the booing/jeering of a free taker following a contentious refereeing decision that supporters from all counties, including Waterford, are guilty of from time to time.
you'd see that most posters have acknowledged that Cork were the better team and have questioned the in game decisions of Kilkenny management.
Keep it civil and less of the backseat moderation
Hard to know what direction Kilkenny hurling is going after yesterdays performance. Cork are heading in a different trajectory to us. Underage success, exiting young hurlers, lovely brand of hurling. While Kilkenny have little underage success and to many older players not performing. Kilkenny could have/do with 8/9 lads walking away. Buckley, Fogarty, Joey, Wally, Richie, TJ, Richie Reid, Blanchfield.
This is hilarious, you kilkenny folk have very short memories. Maurice Shanahan and Pauric Mahony got dogs abuse in Croke Park and Thurles a few years ago and I don’t ever remember a word being said about it. Joe Canning booed in the All Ireland finals against Kilkenny as well.
A bizarre thing to be crying about when your team has just been beaten again in an All Ireland semi final. The second year in a row the management of Kilkenny has made a total balls up of a game in Croke Park. Cork were the much better team and should have won by 10 in normal time only for a few dodgy decisions by Horgan and Cork panicking a bit with 5 minutes to go.
I think calling TJ Reid "unplayable" yesterday is a stretch. He did a few good things but missed a goal chance (not the clearest and I thought he was fouled but no free) and was dispossessed a few times. Overall did okay but far from "unplayable" yesterday.
Honestly now I was at the Leinster semi final and I commented afterwards TJ didn’t hurl his best, but after watching it back on the tv he actually hurled very, very well. Now I haven’t rewatched the game today yet so take of that what ye will. First off congrats to cork, from where I was inde cusak stand I was surrounded by absolute gents and the best team won on the day 100%.
its disappointing from our perspective now. Two years in a row our second half has been disappointing. I thought in the first half we hurled very very well but were only 1 pt up to show for it. The movement, and ball into our forwards will be discussed here and rightly so because the difference was crazy (to look at even and even out of the backs: re all our full back line: but the blame can’t lie there ) but even to get to extra time today we were lucky, and credit to Cody and the players. How he installs that believe in them is crazy and look all things being judged fairly TJ should have had a free at the end to win it and the ref bottled it,but at the end of the day in my opinion, tactics won, eventually.
Look positives Mullen and Ryan, in my opinion absolutely came of age today, Ino adrian has done it before but the whole game he setting up scores and driving lads on, and what a goal he got. a lot of talk about Downey( apologies) but billy ryan took him for 0-5. Tommy Walsh showed great character in the second half to respond to the cadogan impact. Maher, walsh, Carey all went decent/alri from what I saw even though they left acres in front of our full back line, surely following instructions from management. I don’t care who you have FB if Horgan got the ball he got today he’d take anybody for 7/8 points, wnatever it was. I’ve never seen a team who have some many very good hurlers but can’t show it. We should have been 5 up at halftime, R.R missed a few very handy ones, Ino I’ve been on about him a lot and hasn’t found much consistency (if any) at senior ( his best game being the second half against cork in 19) but if there was ever a day for Leahy it was today, Browne also a loss, on another day Cody would have scored a goal and Donnolly would have went well. Billy Ryan went down Injured in the second half and I thought it was time for Hogan then. I think TJ will stay on ( how he can only score 0-1 from play and be unplayable is unbelievable, the best I’ve ever seen) but hogan made a difference IMO and what a servant he’s been to us. I’ll re comment after rewatching the game on the tv. Ino A few lads will suggest retirements for a few KK lads and if this is it I’d thank them all for their fantastic service. Just to note P. Walsh went into the forwards today with a few left. We mighn’t be the great team we once were but we will always, always fight to the end and leaving croker today, I was sad of course but also proud. Very similar to the Waterford game a few years ago when fennelly got the pt at the end. From watching the limerick game and being there today I’d fancy limerick barely but this cork side have an extra gear in them compared to the best.
As a Cork fan, think we deserved to win today but, yeah, heart was in the mouth with the Deegan incident. Wasn't sure when he blew but bloody relieved either way. That said I thought we were goosed in ET at that stage anyway. It's only now in retrospect you see how crucial that incident could be. But would have been a smash and grab by KK. Think Cork bossed about 60 mins of the 90
Forgot about the booing the **** booing
Had a go at a cork grown man about it .kid beside him and they both at it every free .
I politely asked him did he think it was affecting tj or was he just teaching his child to be a clown aswell.
He stopped . small victory
Cork were the better team and good luck to them in the final
2013 championship match against Waterford, match is a draw, referee blows the final whistle as a Kilkenny player is striking the ball over the bar.
2012 AI final, Kilkenny are leading by a point in the last minute, Galway player dives to "win" a free
2014 All Ireland, teams are level in the final minute, referee gives a free to Tipp after Brian Hogan falls to the ground
Today, referee blows final whistle after Kilkenny player is fouled twice
Listen, every team gets critical decisions against them in the final minute, Kilkenny are no different. We were lucky to get a penalty late on against Tipp in 2009 on our way to a 5 point victory.
Just don't tell me that we are not due to have some of these decisions go our way. I think Kilkenny are paying for their success in the last 20 years. Imagine the bile that would be directed against Kilkenny if their fans booed Patrick Horgan every time he took a free
Finally, Kilkenny player shoulders Cork player, free to Cork. Cork player shoulders Kilkenny player, nothing
After all that, the better team undeniably won today p
