Democracy has been slowly dying for decades now, and not by the efforts of migrants. It's been dying due to our own politicians decreasing the power of the electorate and introducing layers to protect themselves when crap goes wrong. I wouldn't consider democracy to be a sticking point over immigration or multiculturalism. Of more importance is social stability, and the growth of lower socio-economic groups, along with increased demands on the state services, which has been seen in other countries as a result of multiculturalism.
As for human rights, I'm now and always have been very skeptical about the existence and actual protections of individual rights in society... but that's a discussion for another thread.
I don't mind change.. if it's properly prepared for. Which is why I'm so against multiculturalism, and feel good gestures towards immigration. There's so little long term planning involved, or consideration towards the effects on society over any kind of extended period. Every action is based on the now, as opposed to considering what kind of country, the following generations will have to deal with. Which is a reflection of avoidance that exists throughout our political and social systems. Avoid the hard issues and make soft gestures as a means of deflection.
As for boards, it's clunky now when before it was efficient and very easy to use. Shiny screens and buttons to impress the teenagers.
Habits don't change I guess. You're still sidestepping points made. Ahh well. Never mind.
Not really.[...] My perception has changed somewhat over the years, and the idea that migrants will gain enough political influence to change our society/culture/laws is unlikely.
We don't want them not respecting democracy and human rights even if they are only doing it in their own communities. This is how we can end up with communities that breed radicals, and this is what happened in other countries.
The inability to edit/multi-quote/quote individual paragraphs is killing me. :D
Indeed, you can only do this now. The site is much slower and lacking a lot of features but hey, it's new, we shouldn't oppose new things. You know, like we're discussing here, new and different it's not necessary bad even if it really is :|
I am very much aware of the costs of solicitors, I often see their bills.
Also, I have no idea why you think gardai should be involved in civil law matters, there is enough criminal law for them to deal.with. Also, let me recommend a peace commissioner for your certified identification, they won't charge anything like a solicitor.
Our rights in this country are very much defended by our legal system.
Not really. However, we need to be wary of elevating "minorities" to positions where they have greater rights, supports, benefits, etc than the native population.
My perception has changed somewhat over the years, and the idea that migrants will gain enough political influence to change our society/culture/laws is unlikely. We have too many (a good thing) people coming in from Eastern Europe, who have similar views to our own, and who would want to retain our existing system as it benefits them.
We do need to be careful of feel-good gestures with long term obligations attached though. The Afghans are a good example of this. Unlikelihood of speaking English well. Check. Lack of suitable education/skills for Irelands employment market. Check. The need for psychological/Medical treatment over extended periods (PTSD) requiring expensive long-term treatment. Check. People who have experienced (possibly directly as fighters) warfare and have the skills that go along with it? Check. The high likelihood that refugees will be from rural areas, and have very archaic/devout Islamic beliefs? Check.
This is not to say that we shouldn't help, but I always wonder at the people who leap at the chance to invite these people in. Irrespective of the fact that most will not be expected to leave again. Any refugees taken in would be a long-term cost, and likely to stay.
That's awfully naive. Have you seen the costs associated with many areas connected with the law, and solicitors? The costs themselves, which seem to rise every year, prevent many people from fighting for their rights, and little changes to how government organs work, moves a lot of work which would originally been free, into the hands of the solicitors.
A friend of mine (as I am too, but our circumstances are different) is moving abroad, and needed a criminal clearance letter from the Gardai, who want a certified photocopy of an ID as part of the request. Which is fine since the Gardai themselves could do that in the stations, however, in recent years the Gardai have been distancing themselves from that kind of paperwork/administration, which means we have to go to a solicitor, who charge for every single signature or stamp. And since in most visa applications, the criminal clearance letter needs to be certified too, once obtained, that means going back to the solicitor for another set of signatures.. all of which adds up in cost.
For a different example, I have a relation who has land (part of which has an inheritance) in West Galway, and wants to deal with the illegal quarrying that has been going on there. The Gardai know who is involved but won't do anything except to issue useless warnings. They need the judgment of the courts to reinforce any warnings, but my relation doesn't have the 10k plus to spend on solicitor letters, court applications, etc... all leading to a very dubious outcome, even though the law on land ownership and their usage are clear. The only thing he has going for him is that he's got some government body interested in protecting the environment interested. On his own, he wouldn't be able to do much without forking out the cash.. with political help, he has a chance.. [although considering the way people live in west Galway, there's little chance of stopping such behavior long term, unless he lives on the land himself. ]
You're right to uphold our culture as being a place where peoples rights are generally upheld. That's a definite plus, however rights are regularly disregarded in favor of the greater good. Just as the rising costs in many areas, means that many people are excluded or pushed into unnecessary difficulties because... reasons. It's not all roses and daffodils with regards to our laws, and equality is still very much a pipedream when comparing those who have money to burn vs those struggling.
In Ireland, cost of services is generally what excludes people, since the law (and those who work it) have so much power here.
Do you agree with minister roderick that they should get the keys for their own pad within 4 months of arriving here?
We all appreciate that we're living in a democratic country that respects human rights. And precisely because of this we should be very wary of people coming from cultures that don't.
Nah, people who come here seeking asylum should be blessed they're in direct provision.
I for one am delighted we live in a country where everyone's rights are upheld, regardless of background, status or wealth.
We live in a democratic country, where, thankfully our human rights are observed.
I think a key objective of a good legal system is for justice to be done, and to be seen to be done. Whereas often enough the objective of interested parties is to make the legal system so convoluted, opaque, arbitrary and incomprehensible to common sense that people can no longer see that justice is being done. In relation to the topic at hand, this is most clearly the case when every costly legal opportunity to somehow maliciously misinterpret or circumvent migration, asylum and citizenship laws in favour of an NGO/legal complex campaigning for mass migration which extracts its fees from the Irish people against our own interests. It's little different in moral terms from a manufacturer which dumps chemical waste in the local water supply and charges the local people a fee for doing so.
We end up in situations where obviously bogus asylum seekers are granted asylum by virtue of simply exhausting all legal resistance at the cost of the Irish people. It makes a mockery of the whole process. There is no mystery why people have so little faith in the legal system when it is so clearly exploited by self interested parties.
Even this week Simon Coveney was falling over himself to welcome fighting age Afghan men to Ireland. Think of the money to be made building rental properties to sell to vulture funds who can then offer them to the government at the expense of the taxpayers! Think of the legal fees that can be charged to fight their extremely dubious cases to remain long after the war in Afghanistan is ended! There is a lot of money to be made, and money dictates political and legal outcomes. The sinews of war are infinite money.
Whereas I would argue that the legal system has evolved to be technical and convoluted so that those with the time/education have a advantage over anyone who doesn't. I've seen a wide variety of threads on boards over the years with posters arguing points of interpretation with regards to laws, each being sure that they know better than everyone else. It essentially boiled down to whoever had the greatest endurance to keep the argument going. The laws we have today are rarely clear cut, and simple to understand/apply for the lay person. And on top of which, there is the flexibility of interpretations by courts themselves (and political pressure) when applying those laws, which makes the overall online debate even more unreliable.
I would argue a lot of people don’t want to know what’s going on because facts and logic get in the way of their hate-fuelled bile.
Its the same posters who are making the same remarks about the legal/justice system despite it being pointed out to them multiple times. They don’t want to know.
TBF the range of change in Justice/Laws that happens without any effort to inform the public counts a lot for that.
I wouldn't be surprised by the misinterpretations or false beliefs people have about Irish law, because I know that many of my own assumptions have been proven incorrect over the decades... but that's the way things are. Until you're in a position to actually find out (either for personal/professional reasons, or a seriously researched boards post) very few people would ever invest much time in learning the way the law (and how laws are implemented) really works. Just as people can assume some kind of misplaced expertise on legal matters, bluffing that they won't be challenged.. because, most people don't really have a clue what's going on.
Following discussion with user, Cordell threadban is lifted
'' Ireland doesn’t fully meet the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking ''
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/cash-mobile-phones-and-documents-seized-in-garda-raids-targeting-people-trafficking/ar-AANfwU9?li=BBr5HCU
As opposed to what, exactly?
Think about the precedent you set for not allowing legal aid before you answer. I think you'll realise that posts like this are just bluster and complete rubbish designed to whip people up into a frenzy.
Cop on. The amount of people here who make stupid remarks about the justice system when they haven't the first clue about it astounds me.
nothing amazing about it, we are paying to prosecute them so we can pay to defend them when it is deemed that should be so.
"Legal Aid was granted"
Tax payer paying to defend alleged foreign national sex offenders.
Amazing isn't it?
A complete laughing stock. Only no one is laughing.
they will still end up in britain as the points based system won't have the resources to actually enforce it, the same as every other immigration control britain has attempted to bring in.
foreign nationals aren't automatically dregs either and being foreign doesn't make anyone more likely to be a dreg and commit crime then an indiginous individual.
Sweet Jesus, now that the Brits have their points based system to get in , I wonder where the dregs of Europe will end up?
A fairly grim outcome for walking down Ireland's main street locked.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEEkmyi5b9W1mk5nuGfs3GQgqGAgEKg8IACoHCAowyNLTATDN-jUwx53hBg?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen
A number of uncivil posts deleted
RobbieTheRobber and Cordell - do not post in this thread again
the first sentence of your posts shows that doing what you suggest actually makes no difference here, seeing as people from like mind countries are capable of having extreme views on subjects, those subjects possibly being a surprise and not so obvious to people.
True, but you can't know with precision what ideas people hold.
Therefore, better to be safe than sorry and encourage migration from like-minded countries and limit migration to a high degree from countries where polling proves a high degree of inappropriate views / accepted immoral practices.
absolute nonsense, it is nothing of the sort.
you can absolutely point out that cultures can have practices that are absolutely wrong or worse, what you cannot do is use those practices to attack people who happen to be part of those cultures, who may themselves disagree with those practices, and expect not to be challenged.
Pretty sure there was a lad jailed for fgm where the baby nearly died recently.
Ireland had 18? Fellas charged with Islamic terrorism offences last year. No suicide bombers, just aiding and abetting them.
I couldn't be bothered looking for links. It's laughable how all this stuff is happening in our nearest neighbors the UK, France Belgium and you reckon it won't happen here. Keep your fingers in your ears and keep shouting racism Robbie!
Reality, mostly.
What exactly are people denying?
There seems to be plenty of evidence of Islamist terror attacks being planned from Ireland, like the attack on London Bridge for example:
The terrorist in question was advised by his colleagues to go to London to commit that little atrocity, rather than Dublin, so as not to draw attention to the activities of the cell based here because Ireland constituted a handy bolt hole and staging location with little in they was of competent police surveillance of their activities and they didn't want that boat rocked.
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