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General British politics discussion thread

ancapailldorcha

It was suggested that a new thread for non-Brexit political matters regarding the United Kingdom might be warranted so here we are.

Please bear the charter in mind when posting.

Thanks.

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devnull wrote: »

Just seen this article on GB News:
https://www.gbnews.uk/gb-views/colin-brazier-masks-will-be-the-new-culture-war-frontier/110520

You have to laugh at the fact it talks about there being a new culture war about masks, because the entire purpose of that article seems to be to create exactly that. This is the exact kind of stuff which is why the UK has such a divided society.

Articles like that are just playing people off each other and dividing them more by putting people in different corners and egging people into thinking the whole thing is a war. It's laughable that they moan about culture wars, when they are the ones creating them!

It's also noticeable that they cherry pick a YouGov poll from May because it gives them a result that they like and ignore the other polls that have happened since, that have given a result that doesn't suit their agenda. Dishonesty at it's best

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012

The quality of political discussion is only going to get worse from here on in. It's laughable that the article finishes by saying that Brazier hopes that there is not a culture war, having spent the last few minutes taunting the other side and egging it on, with the odd bit of deception by omission and the old 'maybe masks don't work' theory.

GB News has literally a handful of viewers.

Strazdas

Headshot wrote: »

Did you see his new conference today? Looked like the medical experts were there against their will lol

Yes, the two scientists said they would carry on wearing their masks and looked uneasy alongside Johnson. Most UK scientists seem to think the plans are a terrible idea.

Podge_irl

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, the two scientists said they would carry on wearing their masks and looked uneasy alongside Johnson. Most UK scientists seem to think the plans are a terrible idea.

Has someone taken a poll of epidemiologists or something?

Whitty specifically said that while there was no scientific consensus on the matter and views were mixed, he personally agreed with the idea of opening earlier to avoid an exit wave in winter. Johnson also agreed that people should wear one in e.g. a crowded tube.

Not everything people do needs to be mandated by law, particularly not by emergency legislation that leads to dictats by government.

Masks are one of the most visible pandemic responses, but they probably aren't the most relevant anyway considering the number of places they are not used in. Their continued use should be encouraged, but that does not need legal backing (particular from limited anecdotal evidence showing compliance not being wildly high in London anyway and plenty of signs telling you not to confront people without masks in case they have valid reasons for not wearing them, something I have not seen elsewhere).

https://twitter.com/BQuilty/status/1412005377231572996?s=20

Joe_ Public

While everyone was getting animated and distracted by the prospect of "Freedom Day", i see the government was busy rushing the Police and Crime bill through its final stage in parliament, cutting short the time mps had to debate on it. Under this sinister piece of legislation the police can curb any demonstration deemed to be a "serious disturbance" and the arbiter of what constitutes a serious disturbance could be the home office, ie Priti Patel. A truly momentous day for British democracy.

[Deleted User]

No snide comments please.

Murt10

I'm not normally a fan of politicians and of British politicians in particular, at the moment, but this honest, powerful and moving speech in the House of Commons by Dan Cardan MP in 1 July 2021 about his alcohol addiction is absolutely brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKsgud-VJUI

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Edited post.

Intrigued to get your commentary on the new police and crime bill Dolan from the perspective of someone who's vehemently anti EU, anti Irish based on the posts they put out. How do you view prison sentences for domestic protest in a so called western European nation.

Podge_irl

Joe_ Public wrote: »

While everyone was getting animated and distracted by the prospect of "Freedom Day", i see the government was busy rushing the Police and Crime bill through its final stage in parliament, cutting short the time mps had to debate on it. Under this sinister piece of legislation the police can curb any demonstration deemed to be a "serious disturbance" and the arbiter of what constitutes a serious disturbance could be the home office, ie Priti Patel. A truly momentous day for British democracy.

It is indeed a pretty appalling piece of legislation and flies massively in the face of anyone who claims Johnson is removing covid rules due to any inherent libertarian agenda.

Though they were using emergency covid legislation to do basically the same thing in the not too distant past, which is why it is vitally important to be very careful about the parameters for allowing "emergency" legislation to continue to be used.

listermint

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is indeed a pretty appalling piece of legislation and flies massively in the face of anyone who claims Johnson is removing covid rules due to any inherent libertarian agenda.

Though they were using emergency covid legislation to do basically the same thing in the not too distant past, which is why it is vitally important to be very careful about the parameters for allowing "emergency" legislation to continue to be used.

But nothing.

This isn't emergency legislation. Equivalence doesn't make sense

Podge_irl

listermint wrote: »

But nothing.

This isn't emergency legislation. Equivalence doesn't make sense

Its a reference to the previous discussion re lifting of regulations in UK.

The police and crime bill has basically no redeeming features.

Joe_ Public

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is indeed a pretty appalling piece of legislation and flies massively in the face of anyone who claims Johnson is removing covid rules due to any inherent libertarian agenda.

Though they were using emergency covid legislation to do basically the same thing in the not too distant past, which is why it is vitally important to be very careful about the parameters for allowing "emergency" legislation to continue to be used.

It's also insidiously a clever piece of legislation, acting as a quasi trojan horse in the way it introduces all those sinister elements under the cloak of a whole range of reasonable measures, such as stiffer sentences for knife crimes, crimes against children etc, so that they can frame the discussion as opponents being soft on law and order and, of course, totally "woke" too. Remember how Starmer got stuck on this at an earlier reading and directed his mps to abstain. People's lives and liberties being used as political weaponry. That's where they are right now.

listermint

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its a reference to the previous discussion re lifting of regulations in UK.

The police and crime bill has basically no redeeming features.

Well, unless you're a Tory with aspirations to control the narrative and put a hard slam on contrary voices.

Making it tougher for people to vote too.

Genuinely England has completely lost the plot. From the outside looking in, it's an astonishing case study in the destruction of rights in a technological age using the same means of manipulation you would have had in the 19th century.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/carryonkeith/status/1412293057203081216?s=20

Strazdas

listermint wrote: »

Well, unless you're a Tory with aspirations to control the narrative and put a hard slam on contrary voices.

Making it tougher for people to vote too.

Genuinely England has completely lost the plot. From the outside looking in, it's an astonishing case study in the destruction of rights in a technological age using the same means of manipulation you would have had in the 19th century.

The lack of a constitution and the utterly failed FPTP system is a big contributing factor. There are so few safeguards built in that it leaves them wide open to a takeover by malevolent interests - throw in a deeply corrupt press for good measure.

[Deleted User]

listermint wrote: »

Intrigued to get your commentary on the new police and crime bill Dolan from the perspective of someone who's vehemently anti EU, anti Irish based on the posts they put out. How do you view prison sentences for domestic protest in a so called western European nation.

You're asking the wrong person there.

[Deleted User]

Joe_ Public wrote: »

While everyone was getting animated and distracted by the prospect of "Freedom Day", i see the government was busy rushing the Police and Crime bill through its final stage in parliament, cutting short the time mps had to debate on it. Under this sinister piece of legislation the police can curb any demonstration deemed to be a "serious disturbance" and the arbiter of what constitutes a serious disturbance could be the home office, ie Priti Patel. A truly momentous day for British democracy.

this is an obvious reaction to the rent a riot mob who turn up at every demonstration, with the sole intent of throwing things at coppers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting, I have been on many marches myself.

Everything wrong with using a protest as an excuse to turn up and start a riot.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

this is an obvious reaction to the rent a riot mob who turn up at every demonstration, with the sole intent of throwing things at coppers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting, I have been on many marches myself.

Everything wrong with using a protest as an excuse to turn up and start a riot.

Ah, i see. Does seem such a shame that the actions of those far right NF thugs should compromise the democratic rights of the rest of the population.

Tell me how

Aegir wrote: »

this is an obvious reaction to the rent a riot mob who turn up at every demonstration, with the sole intent of throwing things at coppers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting, I have been on many marches myself.

Everything wrong with using a protest as an excuse to turn up and start a riot.

Just how many instances of this has there been in the UK which would justify such legislation?

If that was the case, surely legislation telling football fans to stay silent and not be harmful and destructive would be more appropriate than telling protestors they could be jailed for being noisy.

The point above aside, if simple elements as potentially causing a riot were the problem, the legislation wouldn't mention noise or making a disturbance.

Podge_irl

Aegir wrote: »

this is an obvious reaction to the rent a riot mob who turn up at every demonstration, with the sole intent of throwing things at coppers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting, I have been on many marches myself.

Everything wrong with using a protest as an excuse to turn up and start a riot.

All of which they could handle with current legislation if they so wanted.

Joe_ Public

The other funny thing is that the pandemic excuse is rolled out so often to explain why lots of things have to be put on the long finger, whether indy ref, nurses pay or other stuff the tories don't like, but when it comes to stuff like the crime bill and voter id, no issue there for some reason. It's full steam ahead for these absolutely critical measures no pandemic can interrupt.

[Deleted User]

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ah, i see. Does seem such a shame that the actions of those far right NF thugs should compromise the democratic rights of the rest of the population.

what?

Tell me how wrote: »

Just how many instances of this has there been in the UK which would justify such legislation?

If that was the case, surely legislation telling football fans to stay silent and not be harmful and destructive would be more appropriate than telling protestors they could be jailed for being noisy.

The point above aside, if simple elements as potentially causing a riot were the legislation wouldn't mention noise or making a disturbance.

the annual extinction rebellion demonstration for starters, which lets face it is just an extension of the stop the city demonstrations, which is just an extension of the class war demos......

no one has an issue with demonstrations, its when those demonstrations start to impact on the normal daily working lives of people that they tend to get a bit pissed off, or considering the bill mentions harrassment and intimidation, when people are going about their lawful business, such as attending or working in an abortion clinic or a gender alignment clinic.

There is a lot more to the new rules than just noise levels

Podge_irl wrote: »

All of which they could handle with current legislation if they so wanted.

if it could, they wouldn't need to introduce new legislation.

Tell me how

Aegir wrote: »

no one has an issue with demonstrations, its when those demonstrations start to impact on the normal daily working lives of people that they tend to get a bit pissed off, or considering the bill mentions harrassment and intimidation, when people are going about their lawful business, such as attending or working in an abortion clinic or a gender alignment clinic.

There is a lot more to the new rules than just noise levels

if it could, they wouldn't need to introduce new legislation.

So why include noise restrictions or factors in it?

It's a very sinister move towards quelling any message the government doesn't like. UK is in very dangerous territory when you look at the direction it is moving in.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

what?

What what? You mentioned people turning up at protests just to cause trouble and I assumed you were referring to the far right thugs who routinely join demos to chuck stuff at police.

Of course, I'm being tongue in cheek because we know you, just exactly the same as this bill, was referring to protests simply by people you don't like. Whenever there is an anti lockdown or other like demonstration where far right elements turn up to cause mischief, i never hear "oh that's terrible, we will have to do something about this." Not once, ever. Blm, the sara everard vigil, climate action etc - this is unacceptable, we need to clamp down on this.

[Deleted User]

Tell me how wrote: »

So why include noise restrictions or factors in it?

It's a very sinister move towards quelling any message the government doesn't like. UK is in very dangerous territory when you look at the direction it is moving in.

It’s noise levels that may harass or intimidate. For example:

A protest walking down the road banging a drum and chanting isn’t intimidating.

God botherers standing outside an abortion clinic shouting at people going in, is.

[Deleted User]

Joe_ Public wrote: »

What what? You mentioned people turning up at protests just to cause trouble and I assumed you were referring to the far right thugs who routinely join demos to chuck stuff at police.

Of course, I'm being tongue in cheek because we know you, just exactly the same as this bill, was referring to protests simply by people you don't like. Whenever there is an anti lockdown or other like demonstration where far right elements turn up to cause mischief, i never hear "oh that's terrible, we will have to do something about this." Not once, ever. Blm, the sara everard vigil, climate action etc - this is unacceptable, we need to clamp down on this.

Talk about a straw man argument.

Tell me how

Aegir wrote: »

It’s noise levels that may harass or intimidate. For example:

A protest walking down the road banging a drum and chanting isn’t intimidating.

God botherers standing outside an abortion clinic shouting at people going in, is.

Except this hasn't been an issue in the UK has it? Or do you think they have introduced legislation now to aid with impacts from potential legislation which they will push through in Northern Ireland?

breezy1985

Aegir wrote: »

this is an obvious reaction to the rent a riot mob who turn up at every demonstration, with the sole intent of throwing things at coppers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting, I have been on many marches myself.

Everything wrong with using a protest as an excuse to turn up and start a riot.

I was at the prorogue protest which was a last minute reaction to a last minute act from government. I could have been arrested and charged under this law if I am reading it properly

[Deleted User]

Tell me how wrote: »

Except this hasn't been an issue in the UK has it? Or do you think they have introduced legislation now to aid with impacts from potential legislation which they will push through in Northern Ireland?

It was an example, but since you asked

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/08/calls-for-exclusion-zones-outside-uk-abortion-clinics-amid-protests

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53150759

[Deleted User]

breezy1985 wrote: »

I was at the prorogue protest which was a last minute reaction to a last minute act from government. I could have been arrested and charged under this law if I am reading it properly

Why would you?

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

Talk about a straw man argument.

Yeah, sure. If violent protest was really such a burning issue for this government, why single blm or extinction rebellion out for blame? Why target them exclusively which is what they are doing? 10 years for defacing a statue - we all know what that preposterous measure is designed to signify. Look, we know this is all just political. Starmer was throwing some early shapes about making labour the party of law and order. The door is going to be shut firmly on that, nobody is going to steal tory ground. And let's have a little kick at the GRT communities while we're at it, that will play very nicely with the base.