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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

CorkGunJonny

Anyone know what channel it's on? The jim sheridan documentary about sophie toscan du plantier

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EdHoven

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Read back over the tread.
There have been quite a few people who suggested Alfie as a likely suspect.

If you take IB out of the equation the obvious suspects who can be named (as they are dead) are Alfie and Daniel TduP.
As an outsider my understanding is Alfie and Sophie were in dispute about the gate. She wanted it closed, he wanted it open. Maybe because he was to decrepit to get in and out of the car and open and close a heavy gate. Maybe because there were comings and goings to his house. I don't know. In 2008 a very small parcel of land was taken from the TduP folio and transferred to AL. It was where the lane runs at the back of her house. There must have been some reason for that.
The husband seemed to have very little knowledge of his wife's travelling arrangements despite talking on the phone for an hour that night. He invented a flight she was to take to show his devotion by meeting her at Toulouse Airport.
My feeling is Drew Harris should reopen the case and not start with the foregone conclusion it was IB. Look at Sophie's movements. Her reason for being there.
Her house caretaker was French, despite presumably being married to a local. That between them they couldn't get the heating fixed without Sophie being there makes no sense. If the family want to say it was a mini-break okay but Daniel and her parents insist she went to "fix the heating".

TheW1zard

In the podcasts there are numerous sightings of IB howling at the moon and wandering around at nightime. Would tie into into what Marie Farrell says She saw on the bridge.
I am 50/50 on the whole thing.

Henry...

I didn't believe him by the end of , I think he did it

Sheridan didn't believe him either

Henry...

Bailey got into bother in ep5 when he was pissed ,about the alibi

Gussie Scrotch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Honestly. For the last time.

As someone who knew and worked with Alfie Lyons to accuse him is really stretching the bounds of credibility.

He was no longer a 'stoner'. He had been in the past - smoking only grass he grew himself, a thing which is now perfectly legal in many parts of the world, but by 1995 had completely quit as his lungs were fecked from it.

But here in this thread we have people who never met the man (if they had you would know how ridiculous it is to name him as a likely suspect) who claim a man in his mid/late 60s, with lungs so damaged he had to stop helping out as a casual baker as he could no longer knead loaves of bread without becoming breathless, was capable of lifting a concrete block multiple time and bringing it down with great force.

Additionally, he - according to the likely suspect scenario - was perfectly willing to leave a dead body where his adored partner would find it.

Away with this nonsense.

Alfie and Shirley were victims too. Their dream of a quiet retirement was destroyed, they were in no financial position to move having invested everything in that house. Both were literally OAPs.
Forever trapped as the neighbours of the murder house where sightseers' believed they had the right to trespass and peer through their windows, ask intrusive questions, and suggest nonsense theories.

Alfie is hardly in the grave and here he is being called a likely suspect of committing murder. Perhaps if people are going to throw theories out there they might do some fact checking first.

Firstly, no one has accused Alfie.

This thread is, effectively, about posing resolutions to the mystery of who -killed Sophie.

There is no evidence, as far as I can see, that implicates either him or Shirley.

However, there are facts that fit the theoretical scenario.

1) Alfie and Shirley are the only people who were definitely there.

2) It is believed that there were tensions between Alfie/Shirley and the victim.

3) Alfie and Shirley saw and heard nothing, despite their proximity.

So, theoretically, we have Motive, means and opportunity and as a possible scenario...its up there to be knocked down.

Let me make it clear...I'm not accusing Alfie or Shirley. I have no reason to believe that they did or would have any involvement. And you, obviously, knew the pair so I acknowledge the superior insight you bring to this.

What I would like is a comprehensive demolition of the theory. If you have more facts or can challenge the above, I welcome it.

odyssey06

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

I could imagine Sophie seeing or hearing someone on the lane, puts on her boots to confront them. They tell Sophie they should get together, have a drink and discuss some projects. Sophie tells them 'would you ever f*** off with yourself you incoherent drunk idiot' and turns to go back inside, gets a rock on the back of the head and staggers forwards, instinctively running down the hill and fending off blows from her attacker, stumbles and falls.

Perhaps but in your scenario there are lots of noises and a chance for Sophie to scream etc
That's where we came in.

yourdeadwright

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Read back over the tread.
There have been quite a few people who suggested Alfie as a likely suspect.

Well that kind of obvious that h would be suspect to begin with as he was a neighbour and had a on going disagreement supposedly,

Iv said that could have lead him to say he is 90% sure he introduced her an IB even sub conspicuously , As surely he realised by simply living next door people would at least contemplate could it be him ,

Bannasidhe

Marcusm wrote: »

Their house is up for sale now. The ad I saw (commendably) made no mention of the murder.

The ad didn't - but multiple articles about the sale have mentioned murder in their headlines.

Bannasidhe

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't think anyone's said it was Alfie on here ?

Most have just said his comment that he is 90% sure he introduced IB and Sophie is a bit sketchy but understandable so,

Read back over the tread.
There have been quite a few people who suggested Alfie as a likely suspect.

Ultimate Gowlbag

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't think anyone's said it was Alfie on here ?

Most have just said his comment that he is 90% sure he introduced IB and Sophie is a bit sketchy but understandable so,

at least one person was saying he should be looked into and wrote out a fantasy on what he might have done!

Ultimate Gowlbag

TalleyRand83 wrote: »

.

I'm more amazed at the people who are entirely convinced he isn't as if he had an iron clad alibi, genuinely think this cohort are just against "the man" and see a little redemptive figure in IB. Garda were terrible, a tinge corrupt even but to paint this like some giant stitch up is silly

I'll take the evidence or lack of and the DPP report over someones feelings every single time,although feel free to paint me and others as crazy and against the man if thats what you feelings are feeling!

Marcusm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Honestly. For the last time.

As someone who knew and worked with Alfie Lyons to accuse him is really stretching the bounds of credibility.

He was no longer a 'stoner'. He had been in the past - smoking only grass he grew himself, a thing which is now perfectly legal in many parts of the world, but by 1995 had completely quit as his lungs were fecked from it.

But here in this thread we have people who never met the man (if they had you would know how ridiculous it is to name him as a likely suspect) who claim a man in his mid/late 60s, with lungs so damaged he had to stop helping out as a casual baker as he could no longer knead loaves of bread without becoming breathless, was capable of lifting a concrete block multiple time and bringing it down with great force.

Additionally, he - according to the likely suspect scenario - was perfectly willing to leave a dead body where his adored partner would find it.

Away with this nonsense.

Alfie and Shirley were victims too. Their dream of a quiet retirement was destroyed, they were in no financial position to move having invested everything in that house. Both were literally OAPs.
Forever trapped as the neighbours of the murder house where sightseers' believed they had the right to trespass and peer through their windows, ask intrusive questions, and suggest nonsense theories.

Alfie is hardly in the grave and here he is being called a likely suspect of committing murder. Perhaps if people are going to throw theories out there they might do some fact checking first.

Their house is up for sale now. The ad I saw (commendably) made no mention of the murder.

yourdeadwright

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Honestly. For the last time.

As someone who knew and worked with Alfie Lyons to accuse him is really stretching the bounds of credibility.

He was no longer a 'stoner'. He had been in the past - smoking only grass he grew himself, a thing which is now perfectly legal in many parts of the world, but by 1995 had completely quit as his lungs were fecked from it.

But here in this thread we have people who never met the man (if they had you would know how ridiculous it is to name him as a likely suspect) who claim a man in his mid/late 60s, with lungs so damaged he had to stop helping out as a casual baker as he could no longer knead loaves of bread without becoming breathless, was capable of lifting a concrete block multiple time and bringing it down with great force.

Additionally, he - according to the likely suspect scenario - was perfectly willing to leave a dead body where his adored partner would find it.

Away with this nonsense.

Alfie and Shirley were victims too. Their dream of a quiet retirement was destroyed, they were in no financial position to move having invested everything in that house. Both were literally OAPs.
Forever trapped as the neighbours of the murder house where sightseers' believed they had the right to trespass and peer through their windows, ask intrusive questions, and suggest nonsense theories.

Alfie is hardly in the grave and here he is being called a likely suspect of committing murder. Perhaps if people are going to throw theories out there they might do some fact checking first.

I don't think anyone's said it was Alfie on here ?

Most have just said his comment that he is 90% sure he introduced IB and Sophie is a bit sketchy but understandable so,

yourdeadwright

TalleyRand83 wrote: »

Yeah, beating your partner to a pulp isn't that bad at all! And no way in the world could you compare to beating another woman near you to an even worse pulp, apples and elephants.

However, any other man "mysterious high ranking Garda", Stoner Alfie Lyons, French Beret assassin made up man well they'd be much likelier suspects.

I clearly said beating your spouse is the lowest of the low ?

When there is no evidence to say was IB ,

TalleyRand83

Ultimate Gowlbag wrote: »

But people spinning stories to have him guilty are good though?

It's genuinely funny reading the people who want him guilty so badly although it's hard to tell whether its for justice or just so they can be right!

What stories have I spun about Bailey? Nothing at all about being "right" like some smug know it all, more the fact he doesn't look likely to face trial for something that I personally feel he is guilty of.

I'm more amazed at the people who are entirely convinced he isn't as if he had an iron clad alibi, genuinely think this cohort are just against "the man" and see a little redemptive figure in IB. Garda were terrible, a tinge corrupt even but to paint this like some giant stitch up is silly

Bannasidhe

TalleyRand83 wrote: »

However, any other man "mysterious high ranking Garda", Stoner Alfie Lyons, French Beret assassin made up man well they'd be much likelier suspects.

Honestly. For the last time.

As someone who knew and worked with Alfie Lyons to accuse him is really stretching the bounds of credibility.

He was no longer a 'stoner'. He had been in the past - smoking only grass he grew himself, a thing which is now perfectly legal in many parts of the world, but by 1995 had completely quit as his lungs were fecked from it.

But here in this thread we have people who never met the man (if they had you would know how ridiculous it is to name him as a likely suspect) who claim a man in his mid/late 60s, with lungs so damaged he had to stop helping out as a casual baker as he could no longer knead loaves of bread without becoming breathless, was capable of lifting a concrete block multiple time and bringing it down with great force.

Additionally, he - according to the likely suspect scenario - was perfectly willing to leave a dead body where his adored partner would find it.

Away with this nonsense.

Alfie and Shirley were victims too. Their dream of a quiet retirement was destroyed, they were in no financial position to move having invested everything in that house. Both were literally OAPs.
Forever trapped as the neighbours of the murder house where sightseers' believed they had the right to trespass and peer through their windows, ask intrusive questions, and suggest nonsense theories.

Alfie is hardly in the grave and here he is being called a likely suspect of committing murder. Perhaps if people are going to throw theories out there they might do some fact checking first.

Henry...

TalleyRand83 wrote: »

Absolutely, however the popular rule now is to fob all that off along with staggering amount of "co-incidences", varied statements as all drivel and insert loony theories about everyone but Bailey

I stopped believing bailey after 3 episodes

I reckon he realized the gards had nothing and that's when he started all his drama

EdHoven

Amazingly the Wayback Machine web archive has the 1996 winter Aer Lingus website and it functions!
There are no flights to Toulouse from Cork or Dublin.
There are direct flights from Paris CDG to Cork. So the "change planes at Dublin" element of the tangled web is most likely wrong.
CDG-ORK MTWTF 11.15 arrive 13.20

But what is interesting is the ORK-CDG flight. MTWTF is at 06.30. Half past six in the morning.
It is a 1 hour 30 minutes drive from Schull so allowing an hour for check-in IF Sophie was taking that route she'd have to be leaving the house at 4 a.m.
Which might explain why she went to open the gate the night before.
Or if she thought she might not wake up in time perhaps she decided to stay awake all night.

Ultimate Gowlbag

TalleyRand83 wrote: »

Absolutely, however the popular rule now is to fob all that off along with staggering amount of "co-incidences", varied statements as all drivel and insert loony theories about everyone but Bailey

But people spinning stories to have him guilty are good though?

It's genuinely funny reading the people who want him guilty so badly although it's hard to tell whether its for justice or just so they can be right!

MoonUnit75

odyssey06 wrote: »

Why would someone staggering up to Alfies launch a surprise attack with a rock???

I could imagine Sophie seeing or hearing someone on the lane, puts on her boots to confront them. They tell Sophie they should get together, have a drink and discuss some projects. Sophie tells them 'would you ever f*** off with yourself you incoherent drunk idiot' and turns to go back inside, gets a rock on the back of the head and staggers forwards, instinctively running down the hill and fending off blows from her attacker, stumbles and falls.

TalleyRand83

Henry... wrote: »

Most likely scenario I'd say

Absolutely, however the popular rule now is to fob all that off along with staggering amount of "co-incidences", varied statements as all drivel and insert loony theories about everyone but Bailey

TalleyRand83

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Jules always adamant the Garda made up the story of them stopping and looking down at Sophie's house and IB making comments, The place they said they stopped wouldn't give you a clear view of the house,

Again the Garda making up stories about IB

Also beating you spouse is the lowest of the low but there is a huge difference between doing that and killing a women not know to you ,
You'll find many men who beat there partners would never hurt a fly outside of there own home ,

Yeah, beating your partner to a pulp isn't that bad at all! And no way in the world could you compare to beating another woman near you to an even worse pulp, apples and elephants.

However, any other man "mysterious high ranking Garda", Stoner Alfie Lyons, French Beret assassin made up man well they'd be much likelier suspects.

Henry...

brendanwalsh wrote: »

All the confessions are very odd, none of them came across like black humour.

The most damning is the one where he refers to himself in the second person - you saw her tight arse in spar, went up to her house at 2am to chance your arm, scared her and then bashed her head in.

That’s likely exactly what happened.

Jesus that scene where he pulled his tooth out with a pliers, gruesome

Most likely scenario I'd say

chooseusername

SoulWriter wrote: »

The could see them from where they parked, i thinks its across a valley i.e they were on a height and the houses are on a height with low land between
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/at-a-glance-bailey-case-1.2019407

I can't find Hunt's Hill on any map, maybe very local landmark.
Nor can I find any road in the area from which Sophie's house can be seen,
hedges and ditches probably different on Google street view to 25 years ago.
According to Jules the houses could not be seen and the Guard's statement was fabricated.

"She was asked about Garda notes recording she had said Mr Bailey asked her at Hunt’s Hill was that “Alfie’s house” over there [a reference to Alf Lyons, whose home was adjacent to Ms Toscan du Plantier’s holiday home], before saying “there’s a light on”.

Mr Bailey had not said that and a note by gardaí recording she had said Mr Bailey had said he was going over there later was “pure invention”.

It was not possible to see Mr Lyons’s house from Hunt’s Hill, there were no lights and it was dark, she said. Gardaí had referred during interviews with her to there being a party in Mr Lyons’s house that night but there was no party, she said."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/ian-bailey-s-partner-some-material-in-statements-invention-1.2018797

brendanwalsh

All the confessions are very odd, none of them came across like black humour.

The most damning is the one where he refers to himself in the second person - you saw her tight arse in spar, went up to her house at 2am to chance your arm, scared her and then bashed her head in.

That’s likely exactly what happened.

Jesus that scene where he pulled his tooth out with a pliers, gruesome

[Deleted User]

Regarding the attack remember Sophie ran into the barbed wire with such force her snagged garments were stretched tight for a distance of almost a metre. Or else she was snagged and dragged by the killer.
Either way, it doesn't sound like a silent assault.
Although the circular blood drops on her clothing indicated she was bleeding as she ran upright.

Henry...

EdHoven wrote: »

I said it before. He was an experienced crime reporter. He could have gone No Comment and Jules too. Did either have a solicitor present?

Think the solicitor arrived after

EdHoven

Henry... wrote: »

The biggest red flag is surely bailey and Jules changing their stories on his movement

It's massive imo

I said it before. He was an experienced crime reporter. He could have gone No Comment and Jules too. Did either have a solicitor present?

[Deleted User]

EdHoven wrote: »

"Clearly, she was very happy with this visit and had been very 'taken' by Mr Ungerer, to such an extent that they formed a work project together. I am saying that in a telephone call that I received on the morning, my wife [Sophie] had told me she had finally intended to return to France on 24 December and that she had been able to get a seat on a flight arriving in Toulouse at 8 p.m., though she had initially anticipated returning on 25 December.

There was no particular reason for this change of plan and it was agreed that I would meet her at Toulouse-Blagnac, on the arrival of the Aer Lingus flight. During the last telephone conversation, Sophie did not make any reference to any particular plan."

This is interesting from Daniel. I presume this conversation was on the night of her murder? I
I wonder why she was so 'taken' by Mr Ungerer and was the feeling mutual. Perhaps he paid her a spontaneous follow up visit.

[Deleted User]

chooseusername wrote: »

She told the Guards that they stopped on the road home and could see Sophie's house and Alfies house with the lights on.
(she later said the Guard made this up)
But if they saw the houses they would have to have been on the lane leading to the houses.

The could see them from where they parked, i thinks its across a valley i.e they were on a height and the houses are on a height with low land between
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/at-a-glance-bailey-case-1.2019407