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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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Seth Brundle

I came to post the statement and see you've posted a link to it @FrancieBrady

Anyhow, this is the statement from the EU...

FrancieBrady

So the ball played firmly (very firmly...PFO like) back into the UK court.

Steve Peers on Twitter: "EU statement - no renegotiation of the NI protocol https://t.co/Br6BkIRN9W" / Twitter

BonnieSituation

Having just found out how to embed tweets ar an BoardsNua I thought I'd give it a wee bash:

https://twitter.com/BelTel/status/1417050086014586883?s=19

Unionism really is falling to pieces. This very same bleeding has continued for weeks now and it's gone no where. When will they get the hint?

FrancieBrady

Jeffery taking a fair hammering on Twitter.

https://t.co/19G5Ky9HPY

Peregrinus

briany wrote: »

The aim of the people who want to come to Dublin to protest is to A) make a bit of an unusual scene that might attract headlines, and attract the ire of some Dublin's more questionable citizens so they can go back to their people and say, "Look at these Irish, these southerners. They hate us and they are who has elected this Irish Republic's government who so stubbornly insists on this destructive protocol."

Jamie Bryson's lot probably know they can't change things overnight, but they think they can gradually up the temperature until the fire is too big to ignore.

But they're wrong, obviously. The NIP is in place because of choices unilaterally made and maintained by the UK government. And as long as those who oppose the NIP are reluctant or afraid to hold the UK government's feet to the fire over this, and instead engage in feint attacks against others, that will not change — why would it? For all that they profess to hate the NIP, they will be complicit in keeping it in place.

briany

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yet for some reason, the politicians you voted for, and your Prime Minister, and your unelected bureaucrat negotiator are saying No, nay, never ... and you think banging a Lambeg drum in Dublin will sort out the problem.

The aim of the people who want to come to Dublin to protest is to A) make a bit of an unusual scene that might attract headlines, and

attract the ire of some Dublin's more questionable citizens so they can go back to their people and say, "Look at these Irish, these southerners. They hate us and they are who has elected this Irish Republic's government who so stubbornly insists on this destructive protocol."

Jamie Bryson's lot probably know they can't change things overnight, but they think they can gradually up the temperature until the fire is too big to ignore.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

It depends what you mean by a border?
If you are referring to checks then the vast majority of these can be dropped.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what the EU's been saying for the last year, and over and over and over again for the last six months: commit to aligning your SPS standards with ours and 80% of the checks can be dropped.

Yet for some reason, the politicians you voted for, and your Prime Minister, and your unelected bureaucrat negotiator are saying No, nay, never ... and you think banging a Lambeg drum in Dublin will sort out the problem.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Show me where I said that.
I am not opposed to shareing out checks and that could mean some in this island (as there already are) but I don’t think I said it in recent posts

Your questioning about not seeing any checks between Newry and Dundalk wasn't in any way a suggestion that they should be there, Downcow? Were you, 'just asking questions' about checks between Dundalk and Newry?

downcow wrote: »

It depends what you mean by a border?
If you are referring to checks then the vast majority of these can be dropped. Those that need to remain can take place in various ways and in various places. I done see any of them taking place between Dundalk and Newry. There are many other options.

It would be infuriating if it wasn't so hilariously predictable;

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Watch for the blatant, "POINT OUT WHERE I SAID THAT", followed by him/her denying asking about checks between Newry and Dundalk by suggesting (s)he was, '"just asking questions" about it.

It's so transparent.

Seth Brundle

KildareP wrote: »

Your argument, Downcow, and that of some of unionist communities, are riddled with blatant contradictions:
(1)
...
(11)

All of the contradictions are just statements used to try and hide the fact that the unionists simply are full of hate and bigotry. They couldn't give a toss about the NIP, Brexit or any of the stuff. What most concerns them is being close to Irish Catholics. The world is changing and slowly becoming more tolerant. The DUP, like many other hate filled bigots refuse to accept that world and want to stay in the middle ages.

KildareP

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Watch for the blatant, "POINT OUT WHERE I SAID THAT", followed by him/her denying asking about checks between Newry and Dundalk by suggesting (s)he was, '"just asking questions" about it.

It's so transparent.

downcow wrote: »

Show me where I said that.
I am not opposed to shareing out checks and that could mean some in this island (as there already are) but I don’t think I said it in recent posts

Your argument, Downcow, and that of some of unionist communities, are riddled with blatant contradictions:
(1) The whole premise of Brexit is that the UK "take back control", yet you expect these checks should be "shared" by the EU (on UK terms of course), but the reverse prospect that NI align with EU standards is abhorrent
(2) Argue that the passing of Brexit was an overall UK vote and thus must be implemented in NI, yet argue that the NIP, a fundamental part of the Brexit outcome, must not
(3) Protests that the NIP breaches the principle of consent, yet NI voted to remain in that same referendum they insist must be implemented
(4) The NIP is a breach of the GFA by the EU, yet the prospect that the UK exit the EU entirely on it's own terms does not
(5) The cries of harming the GFA now being used by the very same people who refused to sign it or even acknowledge it up until very recently
(6) That NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK is constitutionally damaging, yet are aghast that Westminster might enact a languages act, grant equal marriage status to same sex couples and allow women access to abortion services in line with the rest of the UK
(7) The NIP was negotiated equally between the UK and EU and was voluntarily signed by both sides, yet it's the EU who are solely, exclusively and entirely at fault in the eyes of some Unionists
(8) The UK governments signature is why the NIP must be implemented by the UK, yet it's the Irish government that should face the wrath of the anger
(9) The EU are laughed at regarding the prospect that identical goods need checks today that they didn't before even though they don't become suddenly poisonous or dangerous, yet when asked will the UK commit to maintaining the same standards today as they did before so that these checks are unnecessary, this suggestion is met with grave indignation
(10) We were told ad nauseum that "alternative arrangements" could allow for a completely seamless border between North and South and that the Irish need not worry, yet oddly none of these alternative arrangements seem to be suitable or even available in the identical scenario of an East-West border to deliver that same promise
(11) The UK can threaten to invoke Article 16 whenever it feels like it, but when the EU raises even the suggestion of doing the same, they are, in the words of one Arlene Foster, "despicable", "aggressive" and "shameful".

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I enjoyed the part were Mick Fealty got his knickers in a twist.

He was only having a joke, but many of those bonfires are way too big for residential areas, obviously dangerous.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The pivoting and wriggling gets tiresome. Poster won't stand over anything he says if it doesn't suit his current position. Has been unapologetically dis-ingenuous for a long time on here.

I don't know you bother. All downcow is good for is a bit of ridicule.

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/angry-backlash-over-senior-tory-mps-sneering-at-loyalist-bonfire-culture-3297311

Fairly tame joke, outrage ensues....commentary from local voices who happen to be heavily linked to paramilitaries......Jamie Bryson on his fifty millionth tweet. Usual nonsense.

I enjoyed the part were Mick Fealty got his knickers in a twist.

FrancieBrady

Speedline wrote: »

You deleted it but it was quoted in post #678.

The pivoting and wriggling gets tiresome. Poster won't stand over anything he says if it doesn't suit his current position. Has been unapologetically dis-ingenuous for a long time on here.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Second poster in a row to misquote me. What does that say.

You scoffed at the use of opinion polls. I pointed out that the only way to measure numbers of an identity is census, opinion polls, own sense from living in a place etc.

The biggest laugh is that it was you who said numbers of northern Irish were increasing. I simply agreed with you (your not saying that you are an unreliable source, are you?)

You don’t have to change your position just because I agree with you. That’s what the shinners and dupers do in ni.

When somebody else said 'that an opinion poll is not the same as a border poll' you asked 'who mentioned opinion polls?'.

I never disagreed the Northern Ireland designation is growing.

Your assumption that people finally accepting their 'Irishness' is going to keep the Union safe is not a safe assumption to make.

The biggest shift (according to opinion polls and analysts of same) is from the Unionist designation.

That means downcow, Unionists are questioning handed down designations and adopting for now The Alliance as their political representation.

Why they are doing this is related to the long slow implosion of Unionism discussed across many threads here.

Speedline

downcow wrote: »

Show me where I said that.
I am not opposed to shareing out checks and that could mean some in this island (as there already are) but I don’t think I said it in recent posts

You deleted it but it was quoted in post #678.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When challenged about where you were getting your numbers of Northern Irish, you said you never mentioned 'opinion polls'.

The 2011 census only showed 21% using that designation. Opinion polls since say it has risen. So where are you getting your data if it isn't from opinion polls.

Second poster in a row to misquote me. What does that say.

You scoffed at the use of opinion polls. I pointed out that the only way to measure numbers of an identity is census, opinion polls, own sense from living in a place etc.

The biggest laugh is that it was you who said numbers of northern Irish were increasing. I simply agreed with you (your not saying that you are an unreliable source, are you?)

You don’t have to change your position just because I agree with you. That’s what the shinners and dupers do in ni.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You literally suggested that checks should be between Newry and Dundalk a few posts ago.

You couldn't POSSIBLY have that little self awareness?!?

Show me where I said that.
I am not opposed to shareing out checks and that could mean some in this island (as there already are) but I don’t think I said it in recent posts

Mehapoy

GSBellew wrote: »

1) London played with our peace for their own interests

2) Unionist groups rallied behind London in this aim

3) If Britannia rules supreme there would only be one logical place to protest your ire at their decisions on your behalf.

This was an all island peace process, some of the parties involved chose to risk it all for something completely incompatible with the GFA & now you want to protest your leaders implementation of your democratic mandate in an EU capital that had no say in the initial decision?

Your leaders in Westminster could have avoided a border by remaining aligned to EU rules, Mays deal, perhaps protest that f up instead.

Basically the DUP got all excited and carried away with nationalistic fervour when they saw Britain taking back their independence and rolling back to the height of the empire 100 years ago. A happy side effect was that they would get one over the taigs, both north and south, and have the hardest border between north and south.
But the dastardly papists in the EU pulled a fast one and wouldn't back the glorious brexit, hence the impotent rage they've fermented among the working class in Belfast, really its against the British but they couldn't be seen to express that as it may expedite the tory givernment trying to handoff the mess to the EU altogther.

GSBellew

downcow wrote: »

It’s very logical and simple.
1) roi have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is their capital city.
2) Eu have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is the nearest Eu city

Seems silly to protest in Belfast when their is an Eu city an hour away

1) London played with our peace for their own interests

2) Unionist groups rallied behind London in this aim

3) If Britannia rules supreme there would only be one logical place to protest your ire at their decisions on your behalf.

This was an all island peace process, some of the parties involved chose to risk it all for something completely incompatible with the GFA & now you want to protest your leaders implementation of your democratic mandate in an EU capital that had no say in the initial decision?

Your leaders in Westminster could have avoided a border by remaining aligned to EU rules, Mays deal, perhaps protest that f up instead.

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

No one in ni that I know is asking for the border in ireland to be further emphasises. I certainly am not

But lots of people are objecting to the measures taken to avoid a hard border in Ireland, demanding that they be relaxed or abolished. And few if any of those people are proposing alternative measures to avoid a hard border, which means (a) they are too stupid to realise that what they are calling for would lead to a hard border in Ireland, or (b) they don't care that what they are calling for would lead to a hard border in Ireland. It really doesn't matter which; neither stupidity nor indifference can absolve them from responsibility for the consequences of the policies they are advocating.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He's doing a Jeffery, pivoting and spinning so the truth gets lost and can be walked away from when it suits. Like the 'couldn't guarantee to be peaceful' comment.

Watch for the blatant, "POINT OUT WHERE I SAID THAT", followed by him/her denying asking about checks between Newry and Dundalk by suggesting (s)he was, '"just asking questions" about it.

It's so transparent.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You literally suggested that checks should be between Newry and Dundalk a few posts ago.

You couldn't POSSIBLY have that little self awareness?!?

He's doing a Jeffery, pivoting and spinning so the truth gets lost and can be walked away from when it suits. Like the 'couldn't guarantee to be peaceful' comment.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So we are saying both Irish and northern Irish identities, and indeed all identities in the world are estimated by polls surveying etc. So what is your point?

When challenged about where you were getting your numbers of Northern Irish, you said you never mentioned 'opinion polls'.

The 2011 census only showed 21% using that designation. Opinion polls since say it has risen. So where are you getting your data if it isn't from opinion polls.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

No one in ni that I know is asking for the border in ireland to be further emphasises. I certainly am not

You literally suggested that checks should be between Newry and Dundalk a few posts ago.

You couldn't POSSIBLY have that little self awareness?!?

Tyrone212

THE CHAIR OF the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee has apologised for “offence” caused by a tweet about loyalist bonfires.

Senior Conservative MP Simon Hoare has deleted a post on Twitter that was criticised by members of the loyalist community.

His tweet said: “Who knew William of Orange arrived in Ireland with hundreds of wooden pallets hence the traditional pallet burning fiesta began.”

Hoare subsequently apologised for the tweet.

“Earlier I posted a Tweet which was never intended to cause the offence it has to some in NI,” Hoare said.

“I want to say fully & unequivocally that I am sorry. I intended only to be humorous/tongue in cheek & I got it wrong,” he said.

“I hope my apology will be accepted. It is sincere & heartfelt.”

Among those to respond to the apology were Ulster Unionist Party leader Doug Beattie, who wrote “That’s fair Simon” followed by three hand-clapping emojis.

Former Labour MP Kate Hoey, who recently appeared at a loyalist rally in Newtownards, rejected the apology.

She tweeted: “Sincere and heartfelt ?? Well we will see if he can refrain from his regular snide remarks and obvious anti Unionist and loyalist views and his pandering to nationalists and the Irish Government.”

Loyalist activist Jamie Bryson, who led the condemnation of Mr Hoare’s original tweet, said resigning from the committee would be “the appropriate course of action”.

But others criticised Mr Hoare for issuing the apology.

Days ahead of the 11 July bonfires which precede the traditional day of parades on 12 July, a number of political posters, including Sinn Féin, SDLP and Alliance material, have been seen on some pyres.

Irish and EU flags have also been seen on some bonfires.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any details or links?

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/angry-backlash-over-senior-tory-mps-sneering-at-loyalist-bonfire-culture-3297311

Fairly tame joke, outrage ensues....commentary from local voices who happen to be heavily linked to paramilitaries......Jamie Bryson on his fifty millionth tweet. Usual nonsense.

downcow

Speedline wrote: »

Downcow, do you realise that if theres a hard border in Ireland that Northern Ireland will most likely lose its access to EU markets? The only reason you can still openly trade with Europe is because the border is currently in the irish sea.

No one in ni that I know is asking for the border in ireland to be further emphasises. I certainly am not

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Through 'polling' or surveying them or through a census. I have answered several times now.
Your (NI) last census was in 2011 and the 'numbers' are arrived at by the various polls taken since.

If your opinion is not based on polls...what is it based on?

So we are saying both Irish and northern Irish identities, and indeed all identities in the world are estimated by polls surveying etc. So what is your point?

FrancieBrady

Granadino wrote: »

If that’s what loyalism can be compared to, so be it.
They’re seething again tonight over some joke a Tory made about bonfires this morning. Don’t upset them whatever you do!

Any details or links?