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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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Sue de Nimes

Dyr wrote: »

None of the Brits I know are fussed in the slightest about Brexit, 7 months in now and Britain hasn't ground to a halt. It wasn't meant to be this way

I was in the UK up to about 2 weeks ago. Didn't experience any inconvenience of any sort. Supermarkets were fully stocked. The only supply issues I experienced were Covid related and involved products coming from places like China

bilbot79

Saw this and thought of this thread

Speedline

bilbot79 wrote: »

Saw this and thought of this thread

That reminds you of the Protocol?

FrancieBrady

bilbot79 wrote: »

Saw this and thought of this thread

The 'British Isles' hasn't been used officially for decades.

bilbot79

Speedline wrote: »

That reminds you of the Protocol?

It reminds me of to'ing and fro'ing between the regulars about British Isles vs UK vs NI vs GB etc etc

bilbot79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'British Isles' hasn't been used officially for decades.

Eire agus Bhreatain Mhor? ðŸ˜Œ

FrancieBrady

bilbot79 wrote: »

Eire agus Bhreatain Mhor? &#55357;&#56844;

Why are you using Irish?

Junkyard Tom

Dyr wrote: »

None of the Brits I know are fussed in the slightest about Brexit, 7 months in now and Britain hasn't ground to a halt. It wasn't meant to be this way

Last week industry leaders warned Britain could face gaps on supermarket shelves this summer and an "unimaginable" collapse of supply chains after the pandemic and Brexit led to a shortage of more than 100,000 heavy goods vehicle (HGV) drivers.

www.reuters.com/business

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Last week industry leaders warned Britain could face gaps on supermarket shelves this summer and an "unimaginable" collapse of supply chains after the pandemic and Brexit led to a shortage of more than 100,000 heavy goods vehicle (HGV) drivers.

www.reuters.com/business

If they avoid it, it will be because they have to throw millions at it. Yeh, Brexit...no effect at all.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they avoid it, it will be because they have to throw millions at it. Yeh, Brexit...no effect at all.

If the DUP had managed to get a trade border in Ireland they might have been utterly stuffed as it's possible they'd have been at the arse-end of a very strained supply chain. Unionists are currently moaning about pot plants rather than worrying about supply chain collapse.

The NI Protocol protects unionists from themselves.

Dyr

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Last week industry leaders warned Britain could face gaps on supermarket shelves this summer and an "unimaginable" collapse of supply chains after the pandemic and Brexit led to a shortage of more than 100,000 heavy goods vehicle (HGV) drivers.

www.reuters.com/business

Two years of those headlines at this stage, taking its time to isn't it?

Junkyard Tom

Dyr wrote: »

Two years of those headlines at this stage, taking its time to isn't it?

Britain left the EU 6 months ago and isn't acting like a 3rd country yet as it's not enforcing checks/customs on EU goods entering GB. GB businesses were employing non-British drivers in the tens-of-thousands and they're either not coming back or are leaving Britain.

But yeah, maybe it's fake news? I dunno, you tell me.

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

I was giving you an example of a passport that names two regions of a union (just like U.K. of gb & ni) and rather than emphasise separateness as you suggest, I am suggesting it emphasises togetherness

But it also emphasises distinctness. It's called "the United Kingom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" precisely because Northern Ireland is distinct from Great Britain; if it were the same place, there would be no need to name it separately.

This is why "British" as an adjective meaning "pertaining to the United Kingdom" is problematic; it erases the NI component of the UK. This usage enjoys official endorsement; we have the British Government, the British Ambassador, the British Army, British Citizens, etc, all referring to the government, ambassadors, army, citizens, etc of the UK, not of Great Britain.

NI people who are unionists/who identify as British find this comforting; it affirms their Britishness notwithstanding that they are not, in fact, from Great Britain, and do not live there. But NI people who are nationalists/who identify as Irish have the opposite reaction; it underline for the that the UK is a quintessentially British state; that NI is an irrelevant vestige of Empire best forgotten or, at least, not thought about too much, and that people who are not British are marginalised in what is supposed to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The worrying thing for unionists is that the choices made by the British government in the implementation of Brexit have consistently suggested that, actually, the nationalist perspective on this is closer to the truth.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Avoiding the question again.
How do you work out the number of people who regard their identity as Irish? Not a difficult question for someone who is suggesting NI have only got polling to go on.

Through 'polling' or surveying them or through a census. I have answered several times now.
Your (NI) last census was in 2011 and the 'numbers' are arrived at by the various polls taken since.

If your opinion is not based on polls...what is it based on?

[Deleted User]

Suppose Catholics as the majority don't press hard for a UI, what will the North be like then? How will unionists feel about being a minority in the territory that was carved out for them? I get the impression they're not really ready for that, think they'd be more set up for railing against a UI than a Northern Ireland with a lot of nationalist symbols, leaders speaking a cúpla focail, etc.

PokeHerKing

downcow wrote: »

It depends what you mean by a border?
If you are referring to checks then the vast majority of these can be dropped. Those that need to remain can take place in various ways and in various places. I done see any of them taking place between Dundalk and Newry. There are many other options.

Can you please translate this post to English? All I can see is the word unicorn repeated over and over again?

fash

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you please translate this post to English? All I can see is the word unicorn repeated over and over again?

I believe downcow is referring to the "alternative arrangements" which can now be practiced on the Irish sea border. If I understand downcow correctly, alternative arrangements are so intrusive and minor that unionists will be happy with them in the Irish sea

Speedline

Downcow, do you realise that if theres a hard border in Ireland that Northern Ireland will most likely lose its access to EU markets? The only reason you can still openly trade with Europe is because the border is currently in the irish sea.

FrancieBrady

Speedline wrote: »

Downcow, do you realise that if theres a hard border in Ireland that Northern Ireland will most likely lose its access to EU markets? The only reason you can still openly trade with Europe is because the border is currently in the irish sea.

Not only does Unionism have no workable alternatives, they don't have any self awareness of the only alternative there is to a Sea Border.

Fionn1952

Speedline wrote: »

Downcow, do you realise that if theres a hard border in Ireland that Northern Ireland will most likely lose its access to EU markets? The only reason you can still openly trade with Europe is because the border is currently in the irish sea.

Many of those so very vocally opposed to the NI Protocol would welcome border infrastructure back in Ireland. For some, economic devastation would be a small price to pay to feel like they've got one up on their Irish neighbours.

[Deleted User]

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Many of those so very vocally opposed to the NI Protocol would welcome border infrastructure back in Ireland. For some, economic devastation would be a small price to pay to feel like they've got one up on their Irish neighbours.

They'd love it, but mightn't realise even now that a hard border would make a united Ireland very likely.

Granadino

All loyalists seem to really have to worry about is building bonfires and drawing the dole. Or else they wouldn't be opposed to the protocol.

Fionn1952

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

They'd love it, but mightn't realise even now that a hard border would make a united Ireland very likely.

Foresight has often been a trait hugely lacking among that hardline sect.

briany

Granadino wrote: »

All loyalists seem to really have to worry about is building bonfires and drawing the dole. Or else they wouldn't be opposed to the protocol.

If those were the main tenets of Loyalism, there's be a few Union Jacks hanging around Jobstown and Dolphins Barn.

jamule

briany wrote: »

If those were the main tenets of Loyalism, there's be a few Union Jacks hanging around Jobstown and Dolphins Barn.

there really isn't much difference, diff coloured flag but thats about it.

Granadino

briany wrote: »

If those were the main tenets of Loyalism, there's be a few Union Jacks hanging around Jobstown and Dolphins Barn.

If that’s what loyalism can be compared to, so be it.
They’re seething again tonight over some joke a Tory made about bonfires this morning. Don’t upset them whatever you do!

briany

Granadino wrote: »

If that’s what loyalism can be compared to, so be it.
They’re seething again tonight over some joke a Tory made about bonfires this morning. Don’t upset them whatever you do!

Ulster Unionism has done a great job -especially of late- of isolating itself within not only international politics, but even domestically the parties which represent their ideology are seen as little more than a headache. The phrase, 'impotent rage' comes to mind.

FrancieBrady

Granadino wrote: »

If that’s what loyalism can be compared to, so be it.
They’re seething again tonight over some joke a Tory made about bonfires this morning. Don’t upset them whatever you do!

Any details or links?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Through 'polling' or surveying them or through a census. I have answered several times now.
Your (NI) last census was in 2011 and the 'numbers' are arrived at by the various polls taken since.

If your opinion is not based on polls...what is it based on?

So we are saying both Irish and northern Irish identities, and indeed all identities in the world are estimated by polls surveying etc. So what is your point?

downcow

Speedline wrote: »

Downcow, do you realise that if theres a hard border in Ireland that Northern Ireland will most likely lose its access to EU markets? The only reason you can still openly trade with Europe is because the border is currently in the irish sea.

No one in ni that I know is asking for the border in ireland to be further emphasises. I certainly am not