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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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downcow

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Scottish & British, Welsh & British, English & British, Northern Irish & British, Pakistani & British, Afro Carribbean & British, Manx & British, Channel Islander & British ...

British, a cultural identity, a sense of being, ones Nationality, holding a Passport, belonging to, being part of, feeling a kinship with the British people living on these islands, so why should we tell them they ain't British anymore?

NI is connected to GB for many reasons, most of which I've mentioned above, and from (their perspective) the NI protocol cuts them off from their cultural & commercial Mothership (GB).

A few great posts again from you. I do wonder if the likes of Francie and Tom just can’t get their heads around it or are pretending so.
I think the later is most likely

downcow

Interesting read. The light is (very) slowly coming on. There is real hope a new violent Irish conflict can be averted
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-frost-and-brandon-lewis-we-must-find-a-new-balance-in-how-ni-protocol-is-operated-1.4610097

fash

downcow wrote: »

Interesting read. The light is (very) slowly coming on. There is real hope a new violent Irish conflict can be averted
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-frost-and-brandon-lewis-we-must-find-a-new-balance-in-how-ni-protocol-is-operated-1.4610097

With with Tories & DUP fomenting conflict, the only chance is in expediting their departure.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

Quite the contrary.
The BRITISH passport emphasises our Britishness by specifically naming it.
I love the way OWC gets special mention on the front of all British passports

OWC - One World Computers? Other World Computers? Organic Wine Company?

I don't see anything on the cover of the new "blue" passport other than a reiteration of the separateness of the two territories of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Hamsterchops wrote: »

if they see themselves as British & claim to be British, then presumably they are.

Same as all those Americans who identify as Irish. Doesn't stop them still being American in the eyes of everyone else, and - living in the United States - being subject to the legal, practical, logistical, cultural and economic realities of living on the far side of a stretch of water from the island of Ireland.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

OWC - One World Computers? Other World Computers? Organic Wine Company?

I don't see anything on the cover of the new "blue" passport other than a reiteration of the separateness of the two territories of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
.

You really are in cuckoo land. I suppose you think this emphasises the separateness of Trinidad and Tobago?
https://newsday.co.tt/2020/01/28/tt-passport-longest-wait-in-caribbean/

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Interesting read. The light is (very) slowly coming on. There is real hope a new violent Irish conflict can be averted
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-frost-and-brandon-lewis-we-must-find-a-new-balance-in-how-ni-protocol-is-operated-1.4610097

As someone from NI, you should simply want GB to align with NI and then all problems disappear. You can't really benefit from GB changing its standards and regulations anyway.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

You really are in cuckoo land. I suppose you think this emphasises the separateness of Trinidad and Tobago?
https://newsday.co.tt/2020/01/28/tt-passport-longest-wait-in-caribbean/

What has the waiting times for different Caribbean states' passports got to do with anything?

And besides, what is this supposed to mean:

downcow wrote: »

I love the way OWC gets special mention on the front of all British passports

What's the OWC and where is it on the British passport?

Hamsterchops

CelticRambler wrote: »

Same as all those Americans who identify as Irish. Doesn't stop them still being American in the eyes of everyone else, and - living in the United States - being subject to the legal, practical, logistical, cultural and economic realities of living on the far side of a stretch of water from the island of Ireland.

Irish Americans!

Totally different situation to people who actually inhabit these islands at such close proximity to each other. The States are 3000 miles away across the other side of the Atlantic, Northern Ireland is but twelve miles away from Scotland with constant traffic and commercial & cultural interaction, hence the strong & real identity bonds within these islands.

Far off colonies is a separate issue

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

Quite the contrary.
The BRITISH passport emphasises our Britishness by specifically naming it.
I love the way OWC gets special mention on the front of all British passports

I would imagine that Downcow means " Our Wee Country" = OWC. The passport has the title of the u.k. of G.B. and N.I.

Some folks in N.I. call it "our wee country", other folks ( an awful lot of other folks) in that region identify with the Island as a whole. They don't even call it N.I.

Those folks who don't identify with the term "O.W.C." might one day put it to rest in a democratic vote.

Maybe we could call it OBI= Our Big Island.

OBI One!

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I would imagine that Downcow means " Our Wee Country" = OWC. The passport has the title of the u.k. of G.B. and N.I.

Some folks in N.I. call it "our wee country", other folks ( an awful lot of other folks) in that region identify with the Island as a whole. They don't even call it N.I.

Those folks who don't identify with the term "O.W.C." might one day put it to rest in a democratic vote.

Maybe we could call it OBI= Our Big Island.

OBI One!

First of all ireland is a wee island - only big in your head. It’s not the centre of the universe.

I was reply with satisfaction to Francie who was pointing out the increasing number of people both Irish and British who were referring to Northern Ireland. You are also in cuckoo land if you think that is a decreasing group. Gfa, brexit, protocol, whatever, that number keeps increasing

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have said all along that I am first and foremost northern Irish. I am just glad you are confirming it is a fast growing identity.
Onwards and upwards

I am not Irish
…and if you are struggling to understand - I am no more Irish than a South American is American

The only 'place' mentioned in the name is Ireland. You are somebody from Ireland who identifies as Northern Irish...nothing to be ashamed off. Welcome to the family of the Irish downcow.

downcow wrote: »

The current size of any identity is only an estimate.
…or maybe you can tell me what size the Irish identity is??

No downcow, the current size of the Northern Irish identity is arrived at through polling.

If you want to use the official figure, the 2011 Census is the figure to quote.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

What has the waiting times for different Caribbean states' passports got to do with anything?

I was giving you an example of a passport that names two regions of a union (just like U.K. of gb & ni) and rather than emphasise separateness as you suggest, I am suggesting it emphasises togetherness

lurleen lumpkin

Frosty the no man getting torn to pieces on Twitter over that absolute embarrassment of an article.

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1411053898400419841?s=19

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only 'place' mentioned in the name is Ireland. You are somebody from Ireland who identifies as Northern Irish...nothing to be ashamed off. Welcome to the family of the Irish downcow.

No downcow, the current size of the Northern Irish identity is arrived at through polling.

If you want to use the official figure, the 2011 Census is the figure to quote.

You are avoiding the point. What is the figure that scientifically numerates those of an Irish identity and where are you getting it.
Let’s be consistent my old chap!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I was giving you an example of a passport that names two regions of a union (just like U.K. of gb & ni) and rather than emphasise separateness as you suggest, I am suggesting it emphasises togetherness

Surely the predicament that Unionists have gotten themselves into was because they tested the 'connection' too much and have found themselves now fighting for a sign of 'togetherness' from 'The Great' part of the Kingdom?

Isn't that what Unionist leaders say has happened, 'we have been separated constitutionally from the Union?'
That is why first the GFA was anathema because it gave Dublin a role and why now the Protocol is, because it separates you from the Union with the Irish Sea border.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are avoiding the point. What is the figure that scientifically numerates those of an Irish identity and where are you getting it.
Let’s be consistent my old chap!

Who said anything about 'science'?

There are various figures on the size of the NI identity. The 2011 Census and Polls taken since.

That's where the 'rise' in the number you were talking about, comes from. 'Polling'

Unless you have a different source...finger in the wind? Feeling in your waters? A friend in the pub told you?

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

I was giving you an example of a passport that names two regions of a union (just like U.K. of gb & ni) and rather than emphasise separateness as you suggest, I am suggesting it emphasises togetherness

The togetherness is represented by the Kingdom that was united (which was, in fact, the union of the whole of Ireland with Great Britain). The fact that my passport bears the inscription "European Union" doesn't diminish the individuality of my Irishness ... but neither does it make me any more French just because France happens to be one of the founder members of that Union.

This is the same old question of identity that Ulster Unionists keep tripping over: constantly, desperately, trying to bolster their attachment to an idea of "Britishness" that died in Britain about four hundred years ago. Look at the flags of the two states: which one incorporates the most prominent symbol of Ulster Protestantism? Hint: it's not the one that features the St. Patrick's cross and the blue of the Kingdom of Ireland (still in use today by the Irish Government).

PokeHerKing

downcow wrote: »

Interesting read. The light is (very) slowly coming on. There is real hope a new violent Irish conflict can be averted
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-frost-and-brandon-lewis-we-must-find-a-new-balance-in-how-ni-protocol-is-operated-1.4610097

What light are you talking about? Do you agree that the Brexit your government want requires a border somewhere? Will a differently located border avoid violence? You're the most disingenuous poster on boards.

FrancieBrady

I see the Newsletter 'prepping' the Unionist community for Jeffery's, (in my opinion) slow climb down and attempt to save the DUP from not just internal implosion but electoral implosion.

In his inaugural speech and to Steven Nolan he stridently and in true Never Never Never fashion demanded the Protocol must go or he would pull down Stormont, but when asked outright about it in interview on UTV: “Are you prepared to pull down Stormont if the NI Protocol is not removed?”

He answered 'I would not use those words'.

What we will see here is the same as what happened with the GFA, Never Never Never - then the slow acceptance of the new reality and brazen refusal to accept that is what they have done - capitulated, as the world moves on with or without them.

Can Jeffery pull it off - save face and save the DUP...stayed tuned!

LuckyLloyd

The Frost article is hilarious (laughing better than crying imo). Essentially boils down to ‘we are aghast the EU are intent on implementing the WA in full, we never intended to honour it in full after all.’ Untrustworthy, dishonest and dishonourable.

Galwayguy35

Donaldson was on Sky New this morning, he seems an intelligent enough chap compared to say the likes of Sammy Wilson so I wonder does he really believe half the crap that comes out of his mouth.

Hamsterchops

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Donaldson was on Sky New this morning, he seems an intelligent enough chap compared to say the likes of Sammy Wilson so I wonder does he really believe half the crap that comes out of his mouth.

No I don't think so, as per his predecessor, Jeffrey is but a mouthpiece for his party who pull the strings and call the shots, and if like Arlene he comes up short (in their fight against the NI protocol) they'll fire him too.

FrancieBrady

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Donaldson was on Sky New this morning, he seems an intelligent enough chap compared to say the likes of Sammy Wilson so I wonder does he really believe half the crap that comes out of his mouth.

When Jeffery and the DUP's love was 'requited' he was selling this agreement to the people and negotiating a deal in March that would leave NI in the EU. Now the DUP and Jeffery are 'unrequited' the position has morphed again.

There will be much more 'crap' talked, but the outcome will be, the Protocol in operation and the DUP sundered or not. Depends on Jeffery's abilities at talking enough crap to make the best of it.
Hard to see how the DUP get away from the mess they made without a lot of self delusion.
Everytime the EU make a law change there will be a fresh round of friction as the Newsletter points out and the constant reminder that NI is separate from GB in terms of the laws they must follow.
DUP politicians will be able to delude themselves but will it's support?

Junkyard Tom

If I were a Unionist I'd be deeply concerned about getting the blame for Brexit by the British, I'd be afraid of being made a scapegoat for the mess Brexit is creating. Looks like supermarkets are going to have shortages in Britain while shelves are full in the North.

How soon will GB consumers start asking why the North has no shortages while the DUP helped engineer Brexit? Let's not forget the DUP/Tories slammed every door shut on Single Market membership, Customs Union participation, extensions to transition period, and so on.

The DUP are so utterly clueless they haven't the sense to keep their heads down on this.

Dyr

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If I were a Unionist I'd be deeply concerned about getting the blame for Brexit by the British, I'd be afraid of being made a scapegoat for the mess Brexit is creating. Looks like supermarkets are going to have shortages in Britain while shelves are full in the North.

None of the Brits I know are fussed in the slightest about Brexit, 7 months in now and Britain hasn't ground to a halt. It wasn't meant to be this way

votecounts

Only for the North, the British could have got the proper Brexit that some of them wanted. They'd dump the North given the opportunity and after all they're all paddies to them.

BluePlanet

imo it would be useful now if Nationalists would start demonstrating in support of the Protocol.
The British really aren't offering any solutions other than the EU has to bend it's rules to suit us.
Well, maybe the emphasis should really be on extending the EU customs union from NI and onto the rest of Britain.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who said anything about 'science'?

There are various figures on the size of the NI identity. The 2011 Census and Polls taken since.

That's where the 'rise' in the number you were talking about, comes from. 'Polling'

Unless you have a different source...finger in the wind? Feeling in your waters? A friend in the pub told you?

Avoiding the question again.
How do you work out the number of people who regard their identity as Irish? Not a difficult question for someone who is suggesting NI have only got polling to go on.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

The togetherness is represented by the Kingdom that was united (which was, in fact, the union of the whole of Ireland with Great Britain). The fact that my passport bears the inscription "European Union" doesn't diminish the individuality of my Irishness ... but neither does it make me any more French just because France happens to be one of the founder members of that Union.

This is the same old question of identity that Ulster Unionists keep tripping over: constantly, desperately, trying to bolster their attachment to an idea of "Britishness" that died in Britain about four hundred years ago. Look at the flags of the two states: which one incorporates the most prominent symbol of Ulster Protestantism? Hint: it's not the one that features the St. Patrick's cross and the blue of the Kingdom of Ireland (still in use today by the Irish Government).

The United Nations says I’m british, you are very sad trying to go against every body in the world that says I’m british. Even your government signed up to it.

downcow

PokeHerKing wrote: »

What light are you talking about? Do you agree that the Brexit your government want requires a border somewhere? Will a differently located border avoid violence? You're the most disingenuous poster on boards.

It depends what you mean by a border?
If you are referring to checks then the vast majority of these can be dropped. Those that need to remain can take place in various ways and in various places. I done see any of them taking place between Dundalk and Newry. There are many other options.