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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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AndyBoBandy

^^ Theres a surprise....

the 1 time I had to use this unit it took me about 15 minutes to get a charge started (via a phone call to eCars...)

Never again thanks to Mahon Point SuC.

innrain

From the link posted in random by cannco253 https://merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/releases/minister_ryan_announces_funding_approval_for_on-street_charge_points_for_electric_vehicles.html

we have some figures that I never saw before:

**ESB rollout**
Currently mostly chargers are operated by the ESB
€10 million was committed from the Climate Action Fund (CAF) to support ESB investment in the charging network and this has leveraged a further €10 million investment from ESB. This intervention alone will result in:
- 90 additional high power chargers, each capable of charging two vehicles
- 52 additional fast chargers, which may replace existing standard chargers
- 264 replacement standard chargers with more modern technology and with each consisting of two charge points
The project is due to be completed in 2022.

Kramer

innrain wrote: »

**ESB rollout**........
The project is due to be completed in 2022.

So likely to be completed in the next 12 months then.
Great........that'll get us started on the next ambitious plan then from 2022 to 2025. What's it called again?

"2025 & beyond - how Ireland leads the way in EV charging infrastructure"

Proper high power charging hubs & 50kW DCs scattered everywhere, they'll be as ubiquitous as filling stations are today :eek:.

Anyone have a handy link to the 2022 & onwards plan/targets etc.? I can't seem to find it easily on here.....was sure I had it bookmarked :pac:.

Calahonda52

After what time does the over stay fee on a 50Kw ESB CP click in, just did 37 minutes and have been hit with late fee

Black_Knight

Calahonda52 wrote: »

After what time does the over stay fee on a 50Kw ESB CP click in, just did 37 minutes and have been hit with late fee

Should be 45 minutes... Give or take. The app and the unit will show you different times, but only by a number of seconds afaik.

Does your account say you charged for 37 minutes only? Chat ecars about it I guess

Calahonda52

Black_Knight wrote: »

Should be 45 minutes... Give or take. The app and the unit will show you different times, but only by a number of seconds afaik.

Does your account say you charged for 37 minutes only? Chat ecars about it I guess

Thanks had a timer set for 40 minutes and I have a screen shot for 37:15

ps
just checked my invoice and its not showing on the bill
I got another one yesterday when it shut down after 37 minutes but its not there either so maybe a bug

Black_Knight

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Thanks had a timer set for 40 minutes and I have a screen shot for 37:15

ps
just checked my invoice and its not showing on the bill
I got another one yesterday when it shut down after 37 minutes but its not there either so maybe a bug

We're you unplugged at 40 minutes or just stopped charging?

Busman Paddy Lasty

They ping a warning via the app which looks like a fine notice. Caught me out a few times thinking I overstayed. Was it the app pop up by any chance?

AndyBoBandy

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

They ping a warning via the app which looks like a fine notice. Caught me out a few times thinking I overstayed. Was it the app pop up by any chance?

Back in February I did 2 sessions, one of which I stopped at 44 minutes, but I never got a warning ping on the app!!!! (Though I did have the app open and was watching the timer…)

Busman Paddy Lasty

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Back in February I did 2 sessions, one of which I stopped at 44 minutes, but I never got a warning ping on the app!!!! (Though I did have the app open and was watching the timer…)

Watching it in the app, that's dedication right there! Android phone and locked. I'd be standing around or in for coffee and get a notification like a share price ticker at top edge of screen.

Calahonda52

Black_Knight wrote: »

We're you unplugged at 40 minutes or just stopped charging?

unplugged, on way home!

Calahonda52

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

They ping a warning via the app which looks like a fine notice. Caught me out a few times thinking I overstayed. Was it the app pop up by any chance?

Looks like the app popup, not very IT literate:)

MJohnston

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Back in February I did 2 sessions, one of which I stopped at 44 minutes, but I never got a warning ping on the app!!!! (Though I did have the app open and was watching the timer…)

You usually don’t get notifications from an app when you’re actively using it. Standard developer practice.

the_amazing_raisin

I just spotted a Leaf and E-Niro both plugged into the charger at Circle K Clonsaugh, just at the end of the M50

I thought those old triple head units didn't allow the CCS to charge if the Chademo was in use? It did look like both cars were actively charging, I wonder will it split the available power?

Black_Knight

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I just spotted a Leaf and E-Niro both plugged into the charger at Circle K Clonsaugh, just at the end of the M50

I thought those old triple head units didn't allow the CCS to charge if the Chademo was in use? It did look like both cars were actively charging, I wonder will it split the available power?

Just checked. It was the type 2 and CHAdeMO charging at the same time.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Just checked. It was the type 2 and CHAdeMO charging at the same time.

Ah, well spotted, was driving at the time and I didn't want to be caught gawking

mfceiling

Black_Knight wrote: »

Just checked. It was the type 2 and CHAdeMO charging at the same time.

Would all CHAdeMO drivers be aware that if they plugged in then it stops the CCS charging? Can the ESB fix this problem?

zg3409

mfceiling wrote: »

Would all CHAdeMO drivers be aware that if they plugged in then it stops the CCS charging? Can the ESB fix this problem?

It seems to be a bug. Most chademo drivers would not be aware. It is hard for esb to fix as the manufacturer of the charger would need to identify problem and issue an update. Then esb would probably need to visit each charger and update software. Most chargers with this problem are old and obsolete with no new parts available.

ESB did issue an update for the double head with 22kW AC to allow better load sharing but they said the software fix would only be on future installations, not older already installed units, so it's unlikely they would bother.

Many "users" hit the emergency stop to cut off existing user and then start charging themselves, or ring esb to stop existing charging session so software is not only issue.

kennethsmyth

whippet wrote: »

now this is becoming complicated !!

Are the charging units well marked?

So in essence if I go to a 50w charger and there is someone using the CCS plug I need to wait in line until they are finished or can I use a slow charge while waiting?

On the flip side - If I am charging and someone plugs in a CCS will it stop my car from charging ?

Firstly I have seen this happen both when a ccs plugs in and cuts off the chademo and also a chademo plugs in and cuts off ccs. In France it generally shares the charge but with 50kw its a pain - I'd rather it just charges one at higher level.

3 heads on the rapid chargers Chademo, CCS, Type 2.

You can do the following without cutting off anyone.

Chademo and Type 2
CCS and Type 2
But not Chademo and CCS at same time.

Essentially the Chademo and CCS are DC and the type 2 is AC

McGiver

innrain wrote: »

From the link posted in random by cannco253 https://merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/releases/minister_ryan_announces_funding_approval_for_on-street_charge_points_for_electric_vehicles.html

we have some figures that I never saw before:

**ESB rollout**
Currently mostly chargers are operated by the ESB
€10 million was committed from the Climate Action Fund (CAF) to support ESB investment in the charging network and this has leveraged a further €10 million investment from ESB. This intervention alone will result in:
- 90 additional high power chargers, each capable of charging two vehicles
- 52 additional fast chargers, which may replace existing standard chargers
- 264 replacement standard chargers with more modern technology and with each consisting of two charge points
The project is due to be completed in 2022.

The only thing positive about this is that we now know the specific plan this time. The numbers and the time frame.

But it is not ambitious enough and at this stage pathetic. Adding 140 CCS connectors in 2 years isn't sufficient given the current deficit and the expected EV sales. Also, not inline with the Gov plan fo 1M EVs by 2030. This is a total failure to plan ahead.

Basically nothing has been done bar Ionity and cosmetic changes since 2019.
About 25 connectors added in last 2.5 years. From roughly 85 CCS in January 2019 to 110 CCS today. That's completely inadequate.

Just to compare, here is the growth stats of CCS connectors since January 2019 in selected countries (I'm picking small-medium countries for a better comparison with Ireland, pointless talking UK, France or Germany):

Belgium - from 100 to 200 CCS
Croatia - from 75 to 400 CCS
Czechia - from 110 to 520 CCS
Finland - from 80 to 400 CCS
Slovakia - from 50 to 200 CCS
Sweden - from 220 to 700 CCS

That's 100s of % growth in all of these countries. All of them bar Sweden were even with or worse than Ireland 2.5 years ago in terms of CCS connectors and look where they are now.

If they continue with this pace then by 2022, and a big IF, this eCars project is delivered on time, there will have been just 250 CCS connectors (bar Ionity and 3rd parties) in Ireland. Whereas similarly sized countries will have had double, tripple, quadrupple numbers...

We really need to keep highlighting how poor has the ECars project have been and demand more for taxpayers money. ECars will have to do much more to justify our taxpayers money invested.

Note: all connector data taken from https://www.goingelectric.de/stromtankstellen/

MJohnston

McGiver wrote: »

Basically nothing has been done bar Ionity and cosmetic changes since 2019.
About 25 connectors added in last 2.5 years. From roughly 85 CCS in January 2019 to 110 CCS today. That's completely inadequate.

Just to compare, here is the growth stats of CCS connectors since January 2019 in selected countries (I'm picking small-medium countries for a better comparison with Ireland, pointless talking UK, France or Germany):

Belgium - from 100 to 200 CCS
Croatia - from 75 to 400 CCS
Czechia - from 110 to 520 CCS
Finland - from 80 to 400 CCS
Slovakia - from 50 to 200 CCS
Sweden - from 220 to 700 CCS

Just purely out of curiosity, here's those figures weighted by population density (units are CCS connectors per person per square km, I suppose):

Ireland 1.18 to 1.53
Belgium 0.26 to 0.52
Croatia 1.03 to 5.48
Czechia 0.79 to 3.74
Finland 3.24 to 16.19*
Slovakia 0.44 to 1.75
Sweden 8.24 to 26.22*

*gave the pop. density of these a conservative adjustment on the basis that significant swathes of their countries aren't inhabited.

UID0

MJohnston wrote: »

Just purely out of curiosity, here's those figures weighted by population density (units are CCS connectors per person per square km, I suppose):

Ireland 1.18 to 1.53
Belgium 0.26 to 0.52
Croatia 1.03 to 5.48
Czechia 0.79 to 3.74
Finland 3.24 to 16.19*
Slovakia 0.44 to 1.75
Sweden 8.24 to 26.22*

*gave the pop. density of these a conservative adjustment on the basis that significant swathes of their countries aren't inhabited.

CCS Connectors per person per square km isn't an appropriate measurement though. It doesn't take into account that countries in mainland Europe have a much higher level of traffic flowing through them than we have here. Czechia has to cater for traffic flowing from Germany to Austria if they are travelling through Czechia. This gives a greater incentive for commercial operators to set up charging facilities. The two countries on your list that would be closest to Ireland in terms of usage profile would be Finland & Sweden, and you've adjusted their figures to account for uninhabited areas. The viability for commercial operators is not determined by the queues on summer Sunday afternoon. If there is a very low level of usage during the week, then there will not be enough income to justify installing chargers.

In Ireland, the aim (at the moment) is to increase uptake among users with home and/or work charging, and having a rapid charge network which will facilitate them travelling longer distances. The increase in the number of EVs on the road in the last 2 years has stretched the network past its capacity, and this needs to be improved, but what is really missing is any sort of long term plan. There should be a list of locations that are going to have hubs to facilitate intercity travel in the future (should really be managed by TII). We have some, but it seems very piecemeal and unplanned. At a minimum, all of the TII motorway services should have an eCars hub (proper hub with multiple chargers) and the facility for one or more commercial operators to establish hubs.
Local councils should be planning how they are going to facilitate charging for residents with no off-street parking, and at what level of market penetration this will be provided. The only way to get this to happen is to put pressure on councillors (either from below by harassing mailing/calling them or from above by contacting TDs/ministers and getting them to set targets). Over 13% of the new passenger cars sold in the first half of this year have a plug, and this will only increase.
A visible plan, even if it will take years to implement completely, will give greater certainty to prospective purchasers on how/when they will be able to run an electric car.

Our current tax system does not encourage company car drivers who are driving long daily distances to switch from diesel to electric, unless they are able to complete their entire days driving on an overnight charge, or can charge at their work locations during the day. There needs to be an incentive for them to plan their day around charging that isn't there at the moment. The higher their mileage, the lower the BIK they would be paying on a company car, and also the greater impact charging would have on their working day (not being certain of the availability of a charger at the time/location needed). the BIK exemption really only suits low mileage drivers. This limits weekday demand for rapid chargers, and negatively impacts on the viability of commercial rapid charging.

TLDR: Our number of chargers won't increase until the number of weekday high mileage drivers increases, and the number of weekday high mileage drivers won't increase until the number of chargers increase.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

The only thing positive about this is that we now know the specific plan this time. The numbers and the time frame.

We've known this was the plan since January of 2019. The first post on this thread discusses it.
The only difference between the two quotes is that over 50 is now 52. And instead of breaking the HPC's into six 8 car hubs, 16 four car hubs, and 34 additional HPCs, we get 90 (6x4 + 16x2 + 34).

They've not changed the approach since then, and it was always going to be a 3 year delivery project as seen by the tenders issued mid 2019.

July '21 wrote:

**ESB rollout**
Currently mostly chargers are operated by the ESB
€10 million was committed from the Climate Action Fund (CAF) to support ESB investment in the charging network and this has leveraged a further €10 million investment from ESB. This intervention alone will result in:
- 90 additional high power chargers, each capable of charging two vehicles
- 52 additional fast chargers, which may replace existing standard chargers
- 264 replacement standard chargers with more modern technology and with each consisting of two charge points
The project is due to be completed in 2022.

Jan '19 wrote:

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

MJohnston

UID0 wrote: »

CCS Connectors per person per square km isn't an appropriate measurement though. It doesn't take into account that countries in mainland Europe have a much higher level of traffic flowing through them than we have here.

The irony of you telling me this, I’ve been going on about it for ages

In fairness though, Finland and Sweden do not have much pass-through traffic like that.

innrain

As the Czech Republic or Slovakia has much traffic pass through. And even so it is unfair to count the plugs because ours are low power. Some would avoid the 50kW as they are too slow.
We have the 350kW (theoretical) which delivers 60kW and 150kW temporarily limited to 50kW since last August. Then the upgraded AC units from Stillorgan which downgraded the DC charger adjacent. From the 4333 cars sold in 2021, I bet 3000 are capable of charging >100kW. The question is where? Maybe overseas after July 19th.
So maybe kW/no of EVs would be a more appropriate metric.

bodgerfederer

"Belgium - from 100 to 200 CCS
Croatia - from 75 to 400 CCS
Czechia - from 110 to 520 CCS
Finland - from 80 to 400 CCS
Slovakia - from 50 to 200 CCS
Sweden - from 220 to 700 CCS

That's 100s of % growth in all of these countries. All of them bar Sweden were even with or worse than Ireland 2.5 years ago in terms of CCS connectors and look where they are now. "[/B]

Wish i'd had those stats to hand a few hours earlier when i wrote my second scathing letter of the month to our (Green!) Minister of Transport.

I don't know why i bother sometimes but:

" The only way to get this to happen is to put pressure on councillors (either from below by harassing mailing/calling them or from above by contacting TDs/ministers and getting them to set targets). Over 13% of the new passenger cars sold in the first half of this year have a plug, and this will only increase."

I'd encourage everyone to do this. My letter (and subsequent reply to the response which basically outlined the ecars plan and expressed the hope that this would help me) challenged the Minister to have some kind of legacy or have voters give up on voting for the Greens.
They're in it for votes and ego.

liamog

bodgerfederer wrote: »

Wish i'd had those stats to hand a few hours earlier when i wrote my second scathing letter of the month to our (Green!) Minister of Transport.

...

I'd encourage everyone to do this. My letter (and subsequent reply to the response which basically outlined the ecars plan and expressed the hope that this would help me) challenged the Minister to have some kind of legacy or have voters give up on voting for the Greens.
They're in it for votes and ego.

You won't get anywhere with the Irish Green Party, too many of them believe the oil industry myths around lithium ion mining and cobalt supply. They're an anti car party and instead of the pragmatic approach of a EV is better than an ICE, they'd rather you kept the diesel on the road instead.

Silent Running

If the IEVOA came out strong and criticised government and ESB for the poor performance we might get somewhere. But their view seems to be that everything's grand.

They has a rep from the ESB on one of their videos a while ago, saying that they've drawn down €1M of the €10m available to them. I was waiting for someone to ask him why it was only €1M when so much work could be done. But then I realised that... everything's grand. :rolleyes:

AndyBoBandy

Silent Running wrote: »

If the IEVOA came out strong and criticised government and ESB for the poor performance we might get somewhere. But their view seems to be that everything's grand.

They has a rep from the ESB on one of their videos a while ago, saying that they've drawn down €1M of the €10m available to them. I was waiting for someone to ask him why it was only €1M when so much work could be done. But then I realised that... everything's grand. :rolleyes:

I think I watched that video too, and quite frankly it should have been banned, as I didn't think someone having their balls caressed was allowed to be uploaded onto YouTube.... because that's what the eCars guy had... he had his balls caressed and tickled by the lads asking the questions.....

Everything is indeed Grand!

the_amazing_raisin

Silent Running wrote: »

If the IEVOA came out strong and criticised government and ESB for the poor performance we might get somewhere. But their view seems to be that everything's grand.

They has a rep from the ESB on one of their videos a while ago, saying that they've drawn down €1M of the €10m available to them. I was waiting for someone to ask him why it was only €1M when so much work could be done. But then I realised that... everything's grand. :rolleyes:

I guess that if IEVOA starts asking difficult questions then the ESB will stop talking to them and might talk to a diffeent EV owners group, which would make IEVOA as irrelevant to the ESB as it is to EV owners