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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Continued on from previous threads. Title can be decided if we get better suggestions than the placeholder. We may run a poll.

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TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Exactly, the coaches may have access to footage, GPS etc etc, but I doubt they have access to fanovision and/or a sense of entitlement.

Right then I expect to never see you in here making a case for a player to be selected.

shootermacg

awec wrote: »

You've never seen Baloucoune play so. His defence is excellent. His attack is excellent.

You're right, I would have Baloucoune ahead of Stockdale too. But he's miles better than Shane Daly.

Again, Daly is worth his spot because he's able to cover more positions. I doubt who is the better winger came into the conversation.

awec

shootermacg wrote: »

You might have made a case for Baloucoune over Stockdale. But Daly, provides a lot of cover off the bench and his defense is probably better than both.

You've never seen Baloucoune play so. His defence is excellent. His attack is excellent.

You're right, I would have Baloucoune ahead of Stockdale too. But he's miles better than Shane Daly.

starkid

And its no surprise then that they are way less conservative.

shootermacg

aloooof wrote: »

As an aside to all of this, I thought this was an interesting post about selection from awhile back:

https://twitter.com/rugby_ap/status/1403984323980795904

Exactly, the coaches may have access to footage, GPS etc etc, but I doubt they have access to fanovision and/or a sense of entitlement.

aloooof

As an aside to all of this, I thought this was an interesting post about selection from awhile back:

https://twitter.com/rugby_ap/status/1403984323980795904

shootermacg

awec wrote: »

Hume I am indifferent about, I am not sure he's really ready yet and wouldn't make an Ireland squad for tier 1 tests.

Baloucoune though is miles better than Shane Daly and should be getting selected for Ireland proper.

You might have made a case for Baloucoune over Stockdale. But Daly, provides a lot of cover off the bench and his defense is probably better than both.

aloooof

DonVito wrote: »

Robert Baloucoune and James Hume ARE infinitely better than Shane Daly and Chris Farrell. It's a joke to even put them in the same conversation.

I wonder how many arguments on here could be summed up as someone declaring themselves correct with the likes of "A and B ARE infinitely better than X and Y".?

awec

Hume I am indifferent about, I am not sure he's really ready yet and wouldn't make an Ireland squad for tier 1 tests.

Baloucoune though is miles better than Shane Daly and should be getting selected for Ireland proper.

sprucemoose

DonVito wrote: »

I mean in the course of the season both of them have absolutely outperformed them. Put what Chris Farrell and Shane Daly have done this season on tape and compare it. Never mind comparing them, any tape you make of Farrell and Daly this season would put you to sleep. They are not going to progress Ireland's offence.

simply bollox of the highest order. farrell was outstanding against clermont and toulouse. daly was also very good away to CA after a very poor start. farrell has at the very least been solid all season and has held his own alongside one of the best centres in the world

DonVito wrote: »

Robert Baloucoune and James Hume ARE infinitely better than Shane Daly and Chris Farrell. It's a joke to even say put them in the same conversation.

to put it simply, if that were actually true then both would be starting on saturday..........

briandebum wrote: »

this is a friendly against Japan,

no such thing as a friendly in rugby

starkid

shootermacg wrote: »

Squidge Rugby saying Ireland should be worried playing this Japan team. I don't see how a hammering to a bunch of youths would be a great experience for them.

who's saying to play a bunch of youths? people are saying to play the form player, the guy who deserves the place. his place in a nothing match with nothing at stake, but against a very decent side who are match hardened.

Coombes is the form number 8 in Ireland and older than the incumbent. RB was also worth a shot.

It will be far worse if we lose to Japan playing this team.

Farrell again wasting freeshots at development. A theme as old as IRish rugby itself. when it comes to play the USA we'll smash them, but people will say ah but shure it was only the USA, we can't judge them on that and then there won't be another opprtunity for some time. We're crying out for a powerful carrier. I'd hope to see LC get a good solid half hour. shocking he couldn't find space for RB on the bench. Why waste a spot with Daly, who as a coach you're clearly not wanting to play. Madness

the baby bull elephant

shootermacg wrote: »

I don't think these are updated regularly. Wasn't killcoyne saying GC could be around 119kg depending on his breakfast

“We have had these great backrows in Munster over the years, James Coughlan, CJ, they all bring different things. Gav is naturally the biggest I have seen. He can be anywhere from 114 to 119kg depending on what breakfast he has in the morning."

Being generous and assuming he's 119 more often than not, 10kg of good weight for a 23 year old who's been in a professional system for a few years already would be absolutely insane without PEDs. If he can get to around the 120kg consistently mark nand keep his current mobility that will already be very impressive for any backrower, even if he was South African. PSdT is listed as 2cm taller and is 115 on the Stormers website and 120 on wiki.

sydthebeat

shootermacg wrote: »

Was James Lowe in the squad? Or is he injured?

Not on the squad as recovering from a back injury

DonVito

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd say Hume is well aware of why he isn't involved. Japan are a good side who are good at getting width onto the ball. They will test our ability to shut that off, which would be a big ask for Hume to do on his debut. That one makes sense to me.

And Farrell is the man to shut off the wide attack? Farrell is running in mud. He got embarrassed by Jonny May.

sprucemoose wrote: »

.....wind it in a bit here

hume was decent against munster but i wouldnt say he 'smoked' any of the munster team in either game and since farrell didnt play in either, he cant have 'smoked' him.

hume and balacoune are both great players but to act like they are infinitely better than farrell and daly is a joke

only due to injuries

Didn't say or didn't mean to say they smoked them in games against them. I mean in the course of the season both of them have absolutely outperformed them. Put what Chris Farrell and Shane Daly have done this season on tape and compare it. Never mind comparing them, any tape you make of Farrell and Daly this season would put you to sleep. They are not going to progress Ireland's offence.

Robert Baloucoune and James Hume ARE infinitely better than Shane Daly and Chris Farrell. It's a joke to even put them in the same conversation. Can you imagine if you told Ulster fans they have to do a straight swap? I'd be sickened. Like getting Alan O'Connor for Ryan Baird. No thanks.

shootermacg

Squidge Rugby saying Ireland should be worried playing this Japan team. I don't see how a hammering to a bunch of youths would be a great experience for them.

briandebum

molloyjh wrote: »

Right, I'm getting close to being fed up saying this on this forum, but here we go...

TEST RUGBY IS NOT ABOUT LETTING SUPPORTERS FIND OUT WHO IS GOOD AND WHO IS NOT.

What we learn is utterly, utterly, utterly irrelevant. And if the coaches need to see guys play in these games to get a sense of what they are capable of I'd seriously question what the f*** they are doing with these players in camp all this time. They should already pretty much know exactly what each of their players are capable of.

It's almost as if people believe that what they see is all there is. That nothing exists outside of what they know. That there is no knowledge or experience beyond what they are able to glean from a couple of hours a week watching rugby. What exactly is it that you think teams do with the rest of their time!?

We have seen plenty of guys get debuts and young guys get game time. Ed Byrne, O'Sullivan, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Deegan, Connors, Casey, JGP, R Byrne, Lowe, Keenan and Daly. That's in 14 games, 10 of which are 6Ns. We now have Coombes about to add to that list with almost certainly a few more next week. We've seen Doris displace POM, Connors displace VDF, Keenan displace Larmour and may be now looking at Kelleher displacing Herring.

We have not been hugely conservative. And that's just a lazy accusation thrown at Ireland set-ups that don't pick every single young lad people want to see.

I think you are drastically overstating how much can be learned at training. Do you seriously believe that there's nothing to be learned from capping a player against a good team? That players can be standouts in training, yet struggle in actual matches? There's loads to be learned from playing a young lad at international level. Why do we even bother playing matches, sure all the coaches know what all the players are capable of, they can have a debate on boards and decide who'll win.

I'd question your all caps shout of TEST RUGBY also, this is a friendly against Japan, not a crunch match in the 6 nations. Undoubtedly a step up but a lower pressure environment for young players to come into.

The question of calling Ireland conservative is not simply about blooding new players, I would say it also refers to persisting with players when it's apparent they're pretty mediocre at TEST LEVEL. Or even if they are test quality, perhaps they'll be past their sell-by date when the world cup comes around. Do you honestly believe Farrell can start in a side that can win a world cup quarter final? Do you think 35 year old John Ryan is the answer come the world cup?

While this might be his best team for this match, I don't think this match matters all that much. Maybe as this is a MASSIVE TEST RUGBY MATCH you think differently on this.

starkid

Coombes is definetely heavier than Baird. I doubt those stats are ever accurate. i think it was D'arcy who once said they all play around with them for different and obvious reasons.

Ryan for instance, his weight has been updated. He now reads as 18 stone 4 pounds on various sites. The IRFU even had this weight.

Coombes is the form 8 in the country and he should be starting. As good as DOris is he hasn't played much rugby, so you have to really ask why is he starting?

shootermacg

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Coombes is listed at 6'6" and 110kg
Baird is listed at 6'6" and 112kg

How correct that is I couldn't be sure.

I don't think these are updated regularly. Wasn't killcoyne saying GC could be around 119kg depending on his breakfast

“We have had these great backrows in Munster over the years, James Coughlan, CJ, they all bring different things. Gav is naturally the biggest I have seen. He can be anywhere from 114 to 119kg depending on what breakfast he has in the morning."

TRC10

aloooof wrote: »

Daly has played a fair chunk of those at Full-back as well.

8

He's played 12 games this season (1 at FB, 11 on the wing) and scored 1 try.

Again, it isn't everything, but 1 in 12 isn't "international winger numbers"

shootermacg

I'd feel more sorry for Mike Haley. He's had a great season at FB and I think he has room to grow too.

Jump_In_Jack

razorblunt wrote: »

Yep, absolutely no way they're hitting 130kg, that's obscene.

Coombes must be somewhere around 115-118kg is he?
Baird is taller so has the capacity to get close to 120kg for sure.

Coombes is listed at 6'6" and 110kg
Baird is listed at 6'6" and 112kg

How correct that is I couldn't be sure.

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

Baloucoune's strike rate is also considerably better. 16 in 31, to Daly's 6 in 32. I know it isn't everything but it is important for a winger.

Daly has played a fair chunk of those at Full-back as well.

shootermacg

Was James Lowe in the squad? Or is he injured?

starkid

a bit of a waste of time. we know what some of these lads can do. For all intents and purposes its a conservative selection. There wasn't much change needed, but you'll learn absolutely nothing playing RB or HUme against USA. Just give the lads a shot. AF would get credit for being bold.

Happy for Dillane, after being dicked about quite a bit.

Daly and Burns aren't good enough either. I don't understand why both are persisted with. why keep Daly on the bench over and over. Daft.

TRC10

nerd69 wrote: »

8 months older it's less a shot on baloucoune Im a big fan of his it's a matter of time for him imo I just don't understand how you see Daly as having a low ceiling

I stand corrected on his age. You do have to take into account Baloucoune was out for a long time with a bad injury.

And I never said S.Daly had a low ceiling. I've just seen an awful lot more from Baloucoune and I think he has more potential. That's just my opinion.

Baloucoune's strike rate is also considerably better. 16 in 31, to Daly's 6 in 32. I know it isn't everything but it is important for a winger.

shootermacg

I'm looking forward to the game, but then I look forward to all the Ireland games.

[Deleted User]

TRC10 wrote: »

He's 2 years older and not as good as Baloucoune.

He has more appearances because he's older.

So what if he's versatile? It's a one off summer test, and there's enough versatility so sort it out if someone gets injured. Larmour or Carbery can go to 15 and Larmour can cover 13.

8 months older it's less a shot on baloucoune Im a big fan of his it's a matter of time for him imo I just don't understand how you see Daly as having a low ceiling

clsmooth

razorblunt wrote: »

Yep, absolutely no way they're hitting 130kg, that's obscene.

Coombes must be somewhere around 115-118kg is he?
Baird is taller so has the capacity to get close to 120kg for sure.

I’d guess around 110-115kg for Coombes. Henderson is listed at 195cm and 112kg in Lions page and 198cm 116kg on IRFU page. I don’t think either of the other two would be much bigger than him.

sprucemoose

AdamD wrote: »

My only complaint is Farrell. Really don't see what's hes done to deserve being in the Irish squad at this stage.

well then you have no complaints, farrell has been very consistent this season and has pretty much always delivered for ireland

TRC10 wrote: »

A home win in a post season friendly. Well done.

so you get competition points for winning a friendly now? i dont really understand how that works to be honest

shootermacg

AdamD wrote: »

My only complaint is Farrell. Really don't see what's hes done to deserve being in the Irish squad at this stage.

Hume would be fine for his debut, one club mate inside him and another outside him.

I think he's more a defensive option against Japan. Japan like to play away from the pack and get the ball to the centre/wide as soon as possible. Big Stu and Farrell will be picked to make dominant tackles and hopefully slow them down.

I'd expect to see some shooters employed to disrupt the attack.