Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

shootermacg wrote: »

Sorry mate, just having a little fun with you

As am I friend.

Anyway, I'm not even a bloody Ulster fan :pac:

briandebum wrote: »

Lets be honest, USA are probably not much better than a good club side, are we going to learn much from playing Hume against them?

Is test rugby so dramatically different a sport from club rugby that Hume (Who has played rugby all his life.) will be completely at sea vs the Japanese in a meaningless friendly with no fans in the stadium?

Even if it does go wrong and we lose, who gives a ****e? I'm sure he can "take some learnings from the match" and become a better player? He's not going to crumble as a player.

Farrell is a solid club player, playing him in this match is a waste of time. We have data on him and know what he can offer.

The reason I've quoted this is that come the 6 nations, we are likely to hear the same excuse as to why we can't start Hume or Balacoune or any other young player.

Right, I'm getting close to being fed up saying this on this forum, but here we go...

TEST RUGBY IS NOT ABOUT LETTING SUPPORTERS FIND OUT WHO IS GOOD AND WHO IS NOT.

What we learn is utterly, utterly, utterly irrelevant. And if the coaches need to see guys play in these games to get a sense of what they are capable of I'd seriously question what the f*** they are doing with these players in camp all this time. They should already pretty much know exactly what each of their players are capable of.

It's almost as if people believe that what they see is all there is. That nothing exists outside of what they know. That there is no knowledge or experience beyond what they are able to glean from a couple of hours a week watching rugby. What exactly is it that you think teams do with the rest of their time!?

We have seen plenty of guys get debuts and young guys get game time. Ed Byrne, O'Sullivan, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Deegan, Connors, Casey, JGP, R Byrne, Lowe, Keenan and Daly. That's in 14 games, 10 of which are 6Ns. We now have Coombes about to add to that list with almost certainly a few more next week. We've seen Doris displace POM, Connors displace VDF, Keenan displace Larmour and may be now looking at Kelleher displacing Herring.

We have not been hugely conservative. And that's just a lazy accusation thrown at Ireland set-ups that don't pick every single young lad people want to see.

TRC10 wrote: »

A home win in a post season friendly. Well done.

Anyway, clearly my point went right over your head. I wasn't saying Munster are crap. No need to be so defensive.

Sorry mate, just having a little fun with you

[Deleted User]

My only complaint is Farrell. Really don't see what's hes done to deserve being in the Irish squad at this stage.

Hume would be fine for his debut, one club mate inside him and another outside him.

shootermacg wrote: »

I'll just leave this here

A home win in a post season friendly. Well done.

Anyway, clearly my point went right over your head. I wasn't saying Munster are crap. No need to be so defensive.

TRC10 wrote: »

Well I guess Munster are crap too seen as they finished level on points last season and both lost at home to Toulouse

I'll just leave this here

molloyjh wrote: »

Hes also playing in a fairly pivotal defensive position against a very good attacking side. Kellehers debut came off the bench, an option not really available to an out and out centre (and he is an out and out centre) Keenans came on the wing against a very poor Italy, which is a far more forgiving position against far more forgiving opposition. Doris is a but of a freak athlete. Hume is not.

But by all means, throw around accusations of conservatism because I don't agree with every word you say. There's no need to make any effort to understand other perspectives on a discussion forum. No sir.

Are you serious?

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I haven't made an effort to understand it.

You're entitled to your view that Hume is too inexperienced to play against Japan. I respect that view.

I just think it's conservative thinking. He's been 1st choice for his province for 2 seasons. He's played in Pro14 finals and European games.

How much more experience can an uncapped 22 year old get?

razorblunt

clsmooth wrote: »

Ryan Baird is no where near 120kg at the moment. I’d also argue that he’d probably lose his best asset (athleticism) if he was 120kg+. I doubt Coombes will ever hit 130kg either. Or 120kg at that. He’s a big lump but not that big.

Yep, absolutely no way they're hitting 130kg, that's obscene.

Coombes must be somewhere around 115-118kg is he?
Baird is taller so has the capacity to get close to 120kg for sure.

clsmooth wrote: »

It’s not all about weight. Look at Cian Healy as an example who got back to form after shedding a load of weight (I’m aware he had a serious nerve injury too at the time but see how he describes always chasing the game)

I understand where you're coming from. But Healy is what? 6 foot? He's huge for his size. But when you're half a foot taller, you will just have more room for it.

You might be right about Baird. He looks like more of a 5 type than a 4, although I would still see him as a bit light currently.

briandebum

molloyjh wrote: »

Hume only covers centre so if he's on the bench then we either have no cover with at 10 or in the back 3. At least Larmour offers cover at 13 and 15 which would give scope to include Balacoune.

As for the centres, it was the only realistic selection. With Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose and Addison all unavailable our options were basically non-existent. Hume is too inexperienced to start his first game against a very decent Japan.

I agree re Ryan.

Lets be honest, USA are probably not much better than a good club side, are we going to learn much from playing Hume against them?

Is test rugby so dramatically different a sport from club rugby that Hume (Who has played rugby all his life.) will be completely at sea vs the Japanese in a meaningless friendly with no fans in the stadium?

Even if it does go wrong and we lose, who gives a ****e? I'm sure he can "take some learnings from the match" and become a better player? He's not going to crumble as a player.

Farrell is a solid club player, playing him in this match is a waste of time. We have data on him and know what he can offer.

The reason I've quoted this is that come the 6 nations, we are likely to hear the same excuse as to why we can't start Hume or Balacoune or any other young player.

shootermacg wrote: »

Yeah but Ulster are pretty crap though

Well I guess Munster are crap too seen as they finished level on points last season and both lost at home to Toulouse

clsmooth

shootermacg wrote: »

Both around 1.98M, so plenty of room for it. I'd say it's only a matter of time before they fill out, so say around 26 will be when they hit their optimal weight.

It’s not all about weight. Look at Cian Healy as an example who got back to form after shedding a load of weight (I’m aware he had a serious nerve injury too at the time but see how he describes always chasing the game)

Cian Healy's weight as a professional rugby player has varied from 97kg when making his Leinster debut 13 years ago up to 127kg at the 2015 World Cup.

The loosehead prop has adapted his weight through the years to the requirements of the sport.

"Throughout it, I've had wild changes," Healy told Marie Crowe as part of McSport's My Motivation interview series.

"I started professionally with Leinster and I was 97kg. That's incredibly light for my position and that was a big problem at the start. Michael Cheika just threw me in and said, 'You have to deal with it and you have to work on getting your weight up as well'.

"I've also gone up to the other end: In 2015, for the World Cup, I was 127kg. It's a pretty big scale to be swinging on. When I was 127kg, it was like trying to turn a bus. The lighter you get, the small the car gets. It's easier to move, get around and react when I'm a bit lighter. I felt awful running around. I felt like I was constantly chasing the game, never ahead of myself."

The Ireland international now plays at around 110kg - 113kg due to the increased fitness demands on the pitch.

"I think that's a pretty good fighting weight to be able to get around the park easily and be able to do my main job as best as possible", he said.

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"I've tested the water at all different weights. I've bulked up to that (127kg) and I did a season or two around 118kg, 119kg and I was pretty fit and quick around that.

"In the last two seasons, I've dropped it down again just to try and boost that fitness side of it a bit more than the strength side of it. I'm pretty happy with where the strength is at, at that weight.

"I'm definitely adapting my weight now to how the game has gone. There's less of running start at scrums now - they're more controlled.

"Fitness has become way more important; there are less stops in a game, more ball in play time. For me to be the best asset to the team that I can, I'm shedding off a few more kilos and working more on fitness."

TRC10 wrote: »

Hume can play 12, 13 and wing.

Saying he's too inexperienced is just classic Irish conservatism.

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

He's started Pro14 finals, he's started H Cup games.

He's far more experienced than Kelleher, Doris or Keenan were when they made their debuts.

Hes also playing in a fairly pivotal defensive position against a very good attacking side. Kellehers debut came off the bench, an option not really available to an out and out centre (and he is an out and out centre) Keenans came on the wing against a very poor Italy, which is a far more forgiving position against far more forgiving opposition. Doris is a but of a freak athlete. Hume is not.

But by all means, throw around accusations of conservatism because I don't agree with every word you say. There's no need to make any effort to understand other perspectives on a discussion forum. No sir.

TRC10 wrote: »

Hume can play 12, 13 and wing.

Saying he's too inexperienced is just classic Irish conservatism.

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

He's started Pro14 finals, he's started H Cup games.

He's far more experienced than Kelleher, Doris or Keenan were when they made their debuts.

Yeah but Ulster are pretty crap though

sprucemoose

DonVito wrote: »

I wonder what the likes of Hume and Balacoune think when they see the likes of Farrell and Daly on the team sheet. They absolutely smoke those lads at club level but somehow they sit behind them internationally. Shane Daly..... it’s like Sam
Coghlan Murray being on the bench. Waste of time. Farrell has been extremely disappointing in his selections during the 6 nations and now this too.

.....wind it in a bit here

hume was decent against munster but i wouldnt say he 'smoked' any of the munster team in either game and since farrell didnt play in either, he cant have 'smoked' him.

hume and balacoune are both great players but to act like they are infinitely better than farrell and daly is a joke

TRC10 wrote: »

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

only due to injuries

clsmooth wrote: »

Ryan Baird is no where near 120kg at the moment. I’d also argue that he’d probably lose his best asset (athleticism) if he was 120kg+. I doubt Coombes will ever hit 130kg either.

Both around 1.98M, so plenty of room for it. I'd say it's only a matter of time before they fill out, so say around 26 will be when they hit their optimal weight.

molloyjh wrote: »

Hume only covers centre so if he's on the bench then we either have no cover with at 10 or in the back 3. At least Larmour offers cover at 13 and 15 which would give scope to include Balacoune.

As for the centres, it was the only realistic selection. With Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose and Addison all unavailable our options were basically non-existent. Hume is too inexperienced to start his first game against a very decent Japan.

I agree re Ryan.

Hume can play 12, 13 and wing.

Saying he's too inexperienced is just classic Irish conservatism.

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

He's started Pro14 finals, he's started H Cup games.

He's far more experienced than Kelleher, Doris or Keenan were when they made their debuts.

clsmooth

shootermacg wrote: »

Coombes and Baird are frightening prospects. Both early 20s and both close to 120kg. In a few years both could be 130Kg plus, that's SA levels of big.

Ryan Baird is no where near 120kg at the moment. I’d also argue that he’d probably lose his best asset (athleticism) if he was 120kg+. I doubt Coombes will ever hit 130kg either. Or 120kg at that. He’s a big lump but not that big.

DonVito wrote: »

I wonder what the likes of Hume and Balacoune think when they see the likes of Farrell and Daly on the team sheet. They absolutely smoke those lads at club level but somehow they sit behind them internationally. Shane Daly..... it’s like Sam
Coghlan Murray being on the bench. Waste of time. Farrell has been extremely disappointing in his selections during the 6 nations and now this too.

I'd say Hume is well aware of why he isn't involved. Japan are a good side who are good at getting width onto the ball. They will test our ability to shut that off, which would be a big ask for Hume to do on his debut. That one makes sense to me.

DonVito

I wonder what the likes of Hume and Balacoune think when they see the likes of Farrell and Daly on the team sheet. They absolutely smoke those lads at club level but somehow they sit behind them internationally. Shane Daly..... it’s like Sam
Coghlan Murray being on the bench. Waste of time. Farrell has been extremely disappointing in his selections during the 6 nations and now this too.

TRC10 wrote: »

Not at all. I still think it's an absolute joke that John Ryan is on the bench against one of the weaker scrummaging nations when so much time has been invested in Tom O'Toole.

McCloskey and Farrell is an incredibly blunt, one dimensional centre pairing that will just go route one and won't cause Japan any real problems.

It's also ridiculous that there's no room for Baloucoune or Hume on the bench.

On a positive note though, it's good to see Carbery back. He has a big chance to nail down the 10 jersey.

Hume only covers centre so if he's on the bench then we either have no cover with at 10 or in the back 3. At least Larmour offers cover at 13 and 15 which would give scope to include Balacoune.

As for the centres, it was the only realistic selection. With Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose and Addison all unavailable our options were basically non-existent. Hume is too inexperienced to start his first game against a very decent Japan.

I agree re Ryan.

briandebum

Its a classic conservative Farrell Irish rugby starting 15. I think you need to see what the young players can do against a good test side like Japan, were not going to learn much seeing them play against a USA side that will likely be overwhelmed no matter who plays.

Former Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, with Keenan, Larmour, Stockdale and Carbery in the side, we're unlikely to need Daly at FB

Coombes and Baird are frightening prospects. Both early 20s and both close to 120kg. In a few years both could be 130Kg plus, that's SA levels of big.

irelandrover

I'd have liked to see Coombes start instead of POM in the back row as i feel the other two have played together enough that they are experienced enough together. THey dont need POM in there for experience.

Also like to see Balacoume play instead of stockdale as Larmour and Keenan are familiar enough together.

the above changes would have been a little experimental without compromising the overall side

nerd69 wrote: »

Why do you keep mentioning Daly's ceiling? He's rapid the same age and has more appearances at club level both have 7s pace Daly has more positional flexibility

He's 2 years older and not as good as Baloucoune.

He has more appearances because he's older.

So what if he's versatile? It's a one off summer test, and there's enough versatility so sort it out if someone gets injured. Larmour or Carbery can go to 15 and Larmour can cover 13.

Former Former Former

nerd69 wrote: »

Why do you keep mentioning Daly's ceiling? He's rapid the same age and has more appearances at club level both have 7s pace Daly has more positional flexibility

In fairness, with Keenan, Larmour, Stockdale and Carbery in the side, we're unlikely to need Daly at FB

TomsOnTheRoof

I would have liked to have seen one of Daly or Balacoune start in the back three. I would also have liked to have seen Coombes get a start. Ryan is a wasted opportunity on the bench and that's coming from a Munster fan. All in all it's just a bit underwhelming.