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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
DelaneyIn
TheCitizen
V8 Interceptor
Hamachi - lifted 14/03/22, reinstated 28/03/22
Effects
biko
Kivaro
Eric Cartman
Swindled
Gradius
RobbieTheRobber - lifted 25/08/21 - reinstated 27/08/21
Cordell - lifted 16/08/21
Gangster Yippin
blindjustice
Eircom_Sucks
TomSweeney
Wojtek the Bear
Cordell
klaz
0ph0rce0
tonium22
tonycascarino
Real Donald Trump
Star Bingo
Nuts102
TomTomTim
Nosler
Absolute Zero
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MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

What's tragic, is people debating in good faith with Robbie, to find there actually is no goal, not to mind it constantly being shifted.

I mean you could benchmark Ireland against international standards, our standing in UN/OECD ratings, and produce health, education, literacy rares, welfare standards, relatively transparent security and policing , the mature legal and democratic system with enfranchisement for all, the free press, a planning and development process, protection of children and minors and how as a society we're outraged when things go wrong, the rights of women being equal to men, free expressions of gender identity, free expression of religion albeit evolving to much more secular one, animal welfare protections, investment in rural and deprived areas by a central government, protection of the environment and public health, a historic love of music, sports, film and storytelling, a strong County identify, an affinity with the plucky underdog, an internationally recognised voice for oppressed nations and contribution to global peace as opposed to warmongering.

But why bother. I know I won't.

I can't for the life of me think of one positive of Irish culture, I mean who would even want to come here...

Why are we even having a conversation on inward migration and the risk of multiculturalism to Irish culture.

Mike their is no goal to discussion everything we argue about in CA is for nought.
We are all anonymous nobodies and none of our arguments here will have any effect on the policy of the state.
What Goal do you think there is to derive form this thread for anybody?

I mean your making my argument for me mike you haven't yet produced a single unique positive thing about Irish culture.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope.

Ahh well, I'd struggle to define anything unique about Irish culture anymore. I used to think that the combination of the traditional pub culture along with our live music, (along with poetry) were distinctive parts of Irish culture which fed into many other area, but the pub culture is pretty much dead now.

TBH most of the things I would have considered being Irish have diminished significantly over the last two decades, but then, I don't actually spend much time here in Ireland going out. I doubt I'd be best placed to describe what modern Irish culture consists of.

One thing about Catholicism, is that regardless of where you go in Europe, you will find countries that were shaped by it's presence as part of their cultures. They all were shaped differently though, based on their own circumstances, and reaction to events. Naturally enough. However, the point being that Irish people were shaped by Catholicism in ways that were different to other cultural groups.

I see Catholicism as being a combination of positives and negatives. It would be very difficult to separate our sense of morality from the influences of the RCC. I'm sure it could be done, but I doubt it would be terribly accurate. IMO the RCC influenced so much in Ireland, that any positives or negatives in this country, can all be traced back to that religion.,. (either because of, or in reaction to it)

One positive of Irish culture. Directness and general honesty. Irish people are generally very direct in expressing themselves, and there aren't the layers of hidden meanings that you often find in other cultures. Comparing Irish people with Spanish or Italians, or even Germans, you'll often find the Irish to be far more direct and honest about their intentions. Now, I dunno, how true that is anymore... it could be something that has been discarded but most people I know over 30 tend to reflect such a sense of behavior.

The modern Ireland we are using in this thread to claim superiority is I would argue as a result of shaking off the catholic hold on the country over the past 30 years. So I really can't agree it as a positive.

How many Irish women left Ireland not just for abortions not available in Ireland but because of the cultural shame of being a single mother in this country. I am not talking hundred of years ago but people I met and knew during my 40 odd years in the country. And this was because of Irish Catholic culture how many more to mother and baby homes. And this is just one small slice of the issues I would have with promoting catholic Ireland as a positive.

So despite any positives you might associate with Catholic Ireland I could never view it as a positive nor distinctly Irish.

Another question that comes to mind is who exactly benefits from multiculturalism in Ireland now? There's such a push for it, that it has to benefit somebody, right?

Could it be employers seeking to keep wages low. The 2019 Central Bank Report stated that there weren't enough migrants arriving to wages low. Strangely if you look at the minutes of the Dublin Trades Councils in 1914 on bringing Belgian Workers to Dublin James Connolly argued that they they posed a threat to the already precarious conditions and wages of Irish workers at the time. So while coming at it from a different angle the Central Bank agrees with James Connolly's analysis.

Mette Friedriksen the Danish Social Democrats Prime Minister also notes similarities, she said that

It is becoming increasingly clear that the price of unregulated globalisation, mass immigration and the free movement of labour is paid for by the lower classes.”

Could it be vulture funds and landlords who get to charge extortionate rents while knowing that demand for homes is going to outstrip supply for the forseeable future? Most people under 30 can't see themselves ever owning their own home and as today's Examiner shows a quarter of people renting today are renting by choice. So that's three quarters of people who are renting would prefer to have their own homes.

That's just two that I can think of, off the top of my head. I'm sure others can come up with some more.

TomTomTim wrote: »

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

Well if someone wanted to derail a thread by trying to direct it down various cul de sacs and not addressing any answers given, wouldn’t this be a way to do it?

Other people have noted the same tactic.

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said.

At least when it comes to multiculturalism, posters are willing to discuss the various aspects associated. If you'd wanted something similar for Irish culture, then, you should have encouraged discourse, not shut it down. Probably the reason why others haven't rushed to answer your question on Irish culture... because you've shown you don't have any real interest in discussing it.

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

What's tragic, is people debating in good faith with Robbie, to find there actually is no goal, not to mind it constantly being shifted.

Dyr wrote: »

Common enough tactic, spam away, try drag threads down dead ends, over and over.

It's almost like someone is arguing in bad faith here. :rolleyes:

To be fair, most of the posters on here are willing to argue in good faith and engage respectfully with others that don't have the same view. Some others however don't, and I think people looking at this thread can identify who is who.

TomTomTim wrote: »

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

Common enough tactic, spam away, try drag threads down dead ends, over and over.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said

There are a few of them on here.
Their MO is to ask you what you think before proceeding to tell you what to think, not unlike certain ideologies under discussion

They bark and bellow at you too .. bit like that chap on the video earlier

You can't Reason with them coz Reasoning is not allowed

Just say no

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So is this post an example of how I should engage with other posters in this thread Klaz?

Nope.

One positive of Irish culture Klaz.
So far the only real suggestion is Catholicism and I'm going to be honest I don't think that can be considered positive in an Irish culture context.

Ahh well, I'd struggle to define anything unique about Irish culture anymore. I used to think that the combination of the traditional pub culture along with our live music, (along with poetry) were distinctive parts of Irish culture which fed into many other area, but the pub culture is pretty much dead now.

TBH most of the things I would have considered being Irish have diminished significantly over the last two decades, but then, I don't actually spend much time here in Ireland going out. I doubt I'd be best placed to describe what modern Irish culture consists of.

One thing about Catholicism, is that regardless of where you go in Europe, you will find countries that were shaped by it's presence as part of their cultures. They all were shaped differently though, based on their own circumstances, and reaction to events. Naturally enough. However, the point being that Irish people were shaped by Catholicism in ways that were different to other cultural groups.

I see Catholicism as being a combination of positives and negatives. It would be very difficult to separate our sense of morality from the influences of the RCC. I'm sure it could be done, but I doubt it would be terribly accurate. IMO the RCC influenced so much in Ireland, that any positives or negatives in this country, can all be traced back to that religion.,. (either because of, or in reaction to it)

One positive of Irish culture. Directness and general honesty. Irish people are generally very direct in expressing themselves, and there aren't the layers of hidden meanings that you often find in other cultures. Comparing Irish people with Spanish or Italians, or even Germans, you'll often find the Irish to be far more direct and honest about their intentions. Now, I dunno, how true that is anymore... it could be something that has been discarded but most people I know over 30 tend to reflect such a sense of behavior.

What's tragic, is people debating in good faith with Robbie, to find there actually is no goal, not to mind it constantly being shifted.

I mean you could benchmark Ireland against international standards, our standing in UN/OECD ratings, and produce health, education, literacy rares, welfare standards, relatively transparent security and policing , the mature legal and democratic system with enfranchisement for all, the free press, a planning and development process, protection of children and minors and how as a society we're outraged when things go wrong, the rights of women being equal to men, free expressions of gender identity, free expression of religion albeit evolving to much more secular one, animal welfare protections, investment in rural and deprived areas by a central government, protection of the environment and public health, a historic love of music, sports, film and storytelling, a strong County identify, an affinity with the plucky underdog, an internationally recognised voice for oppressed nations and contribution to global peace as opposed to warmongering.

But why bother. I know I won't.

I can't for the life of me think of one positive of Irish culture, I mean who would even want to come here...

Why are we even having a conversation on inward migration and the risk of multiculturalism to Irish culture.

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said.

At least when it comes to multiculturalism, posters are willing to discuss the various aspects associated. If you'd wanted something similar for Irish culture, then, you should have encouraged discourse, not shut it down. Probably the reason why others haven't rushed to answer your question on Irish culture... because you've shown you don't have any real interest in discussing it.

So is this post an example of how I should engage with other posters in this thread Klaz?
One positive of Irish culture Klaz.
So far the only real suggestion is Catholicism and I'm going to be honest I don't think that can be considered positive in an Irish culture context.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

If we can ask the question of multiculturalism surely it would only be fair to reflect that question back on ourselves and answer it. If the question is fair we should have no problem answering it!

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said.

At least when it comes to multiculturalism, posters are willing to discuss the various aspects associated. If you'd wanted something similar for Irish culture, then, you should have encouraged discourse, not shut it down. Probably the reason why others haven't rushed to answer your question on Irish culture... because you've shown you don't have any real interest in discussing it.

TomTomTim wrote: »

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

I am merely seeking to apply the same criteria applied to multiculturalism on this thread to Irish Culture and then seeking to discuss the positives people raise.

If we can ask the question of multiculturalism surely it would only be fair to reflect that question back on ourselves and answer it. If the question is fair we should have no problem answering it!

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I'm not asking you to compare.
I'm asking was Catholicism a positive force in Irish culture?

My outlined parameters, I just extended the exclusions applied to multiculturalism on this thread.

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Id say it is much more positive than an Islamic culture.

But it's ok Robbie, I've no intention of discussing the merits of Irish and western culture under your outlined parameters.

I'm not asking you to compare.
I'm asking was Catholicism a positive force in Irish culture?

My outlined parameters, I just extended the exclusions applied to multiculturalism on this thread.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Yeah banned as a positive for multiculturalism so banned here sorry dunne.

Catholicism is imported and it is not distinct to Irish culture and is our Catholicism a positive?

Id say it is much more positive than an Islamic culture.

But it's ok Robbie, I've no intention of discussing the merits of Irish and western culture under your outlined parameters.

Cordell wrote: »

All of them. You can't separate them, western cultures evolved together as THE western culture with it's values that we value today.
And because we're going into the "what have the Romans ever done for us" territory please excuse me now.

OK so give me one and we can consider it in the irish context.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well you have placed a ban on arts, cuisine, sports, etc so I'm assuming language, mythology, storytelling , known for being highly social, being held in high regard (mostly) throughout the world, historically Catholic, poetic etc are all banned too?

All of which are valuable and important parts of our impact on the western culture as a whole.

Yeah banned as a positive for multiculturalism so banned here sorry dunne.

Catholicism is imported and it is not distinct to Irish culture and is our Catholicism a positive?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

All of them?
So name one and lets link it specifically to Irish people and culture and see if it stands up.

All of them. You can't separate them, western cultures evolved together as THE western culture with it's values that we value today.
And because we're going into the "what have the Romans ever done for us" territory please excuse me now.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So not Irish Culture then right?

I mean I did specifically ask about Irish Culture.

Well you have placed a ban on arts, cuisine, sports, etc so I'm assuming language, mythology, storytelling , known for being highly social, being held in high regard (mostly) throughout the world, historically Catholic, poetic etc are all banned too?

All of which are valuable and important parts of our impact on the western culture as a whole.

Deleted User wrote: »

No reasonable person reading this discussion will read my response to you as ad hominem. You are doing yourself no favours here.

I already answered the question. You rejected my answer. I asked you to clarify, by way of example, what sort of answer you are looking for. You are refusing.

Entirely your prerogative, of course, but you nonetheless bring the discussion to a logical end point with that choice.

Come on Cymro answer the question in the words of Wibbs!

Wibbs wrote: »

No flilflam about definitions, no defection, no reframing.

Cordell wrote: »

All the values of the western culture are also values of the Irish culture, they are inseparable.

All of them?
So name one and lets link it specifically to Irish people and culture and see if it stands up.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So not Irish Culture then right?

I mean I did specifically ask about Irish Culture.

All the values of the western culture are also values of the Irish culture, they are inseparable.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No need for the ad hominem Cymro

No reasonable person reading this discussion will read my response to you as ad hominem. You are doing yourself no favours here.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

if you cant answer the question

I already answered the question. You rejected my answer. I asked you to clarify, by way of example, what sort of answer you are looking for. You are refusing.

Entirely your prerogative, of course, but you nonetheless bring the discussion to a logical end point with that choice.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not going back through a 650 page thread to pick out your posts. You are right here.

You can either give me an example of what you consider an acceptable answer to the question "what are the positive about Irish culture" or you can wait for some other chump to come along and mistake you for a good-faith actor long enough to try and engage.

No need for the ad hominem Cymro, if you cant answer the question then don't, but you don't have to try and insult me to cover up for your lack of an answer.

Cordell wrote: »

Irish culture is part of the wider western culture.
The western culture is the one that brought all advancements and progress we enjoy today.

So not Irish Culture then right?

I mean I did specifically ask about Irish Culture.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Which human rights?
and human rights, freedom and equality these are specific to Irish culture in what way?

Irish culture is part of the wider western culture.
The western culture is the one that brought all advancements and progress we enjoy today.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Why not go and check out my response to Wibbs when he proposed this very question of multiculturalism. See the responses to my reply to this question.

This thread has been very critical of Islam as a single all encompassing entity (read the posts above mine for examples) and has not sought to deal with people of the Muslim faith as individuals regardless of their race or religion as you claimed in your reply. So no Cymro I cant accept your answer as true based on the evidence of this thread alone.

Hope you are happy now buddy. Any other positives you can thing of?

I'm not going back through a 650 page thread to pick out your posts. You are right here.

You can either give me an example of what you consider an acceptable answer to the question "what are the positive about Irish culture" or you can wait for some other chump to come along and mistake you for a good-faith actor long enough to try and engage.

Cordell wrote: »

You mean apart from human rights, freedom and equality?

Which human rights?
and human rights, freedom and equality these are specific to Irish culture in what way and since when?

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the purpose would be to respond to someone who made a good-faith attempt to answer, which you dismissed as horse manure. When you did that, became my suspicion that you are not particularly interested in an answer so much as you are interested in inducing a bad-faith discussion wherein any and every answer given is dismissed as horse manure (or similar) by you, so that you can feel somehow vindicated on behalf of the "pro-multiculturalism" argument, which seems to have failed thus far to outline any substantial benefits.

The onus is now on you to provide an example of the sort of answer you would find acceptable, else we find ourselves at an impasse, since I am not willing to spend my time giving increasingly specific answers without you giving at least some indication of what sort of answer, what level of specificity, you would find acceptable.

To wit; the ball is in your court and I would like you to stop purposely smashing it into the net.

Why not go and check out my response to Wibbs when he proposed this very question of multiculturalism. See the responses to my reply to this question.

This thread has been very critical of Islam as a single all encompassing entity (read the posts above mine for examples) and has not sought to deal with people of the Muslim faith as individuals regardless of their race or religion as you claimed in your reply. So no Cymro I cant accept your answer as true based on the evidence of this thread alone.

Hope you are happy now buddy. Any other positives you can thing of?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What are the positives of Irish culture?

You mean apart from human rights, freedom and equality?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I am asking the question of the thread. What would be the purpose of asking a question and answering it myself?

Well the purpose would be to respond to someone who made a good-faith attempt to answer, which you dismissed as horse manure. When you did that, became my suspicion that you are not particularly interested in an answer so much as you are interested in inducing a bad-faith discussion wherein any and every answer given is dismissed as horse manure (or similar) by you, so that you can feel somehow vindicated on behalf of the "pro-multiculturalism" argument, which seems to have failed thus far to outline any substantial benefits.

The onus is now on you to provide an example of the sort of answer you would find acceptable, else we find ourselves at an impasse, since I am not willing to spend my time giving increasingly specific answers without you giving at least some indication of what sort of answer, what level of specificity, you would find acceptable.

To wit; the ball is in your court and I would like you to stop purposely smashing it into the net.