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Mica Redress

[Deleted User]

In Donegal & Mayo over 5,000 houses were built with blocks that have been discovered to be faulty and the houses that were built are falling down.

The supplier of these blocks would be able to contribute less than 0.1% of the cost to fix this so the owners of these houses are looking to the government (taxpayers) to pay for the cost to fix this.

The cost at this time is difficult to estimate but will be in the region of €1.5 billion to €5 billion.

This equates to a contribution by every man, woman and child in Ireland of between €300 and €1,000 to fix this issue to the satisfaction of those affected.

Should the taxpayer fund 100% of this cost?

EDIT:

This thread was identified in the mica information thread in the Donegal forum and there has been an influx of people who have been affected by mica and therefore have a strong personal motivation to get 100% redress so the poll is no longer a fair representation unfortunately.

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Cookie_Monster

Shouldn't it be on the council that signed off on the build that is responsible? Why should central govt and taxpayers be on the hook.
Inspectors should have caught it and the councils insurance should be liable as a result of their failure if the actual supplier cannot be made financially liable

ancapailldorcha

whatnow! wrote: »

Should the taxpayer fund 100% of this cost?

I'm from Donegal and I'd never even heard of Mica until recently. Thanks for providing some background as I'd no clue what this was all about.

If it affects 5,000 homes and they all fall apart, that's going to be devastating for the individuals and families involved so I think some form of state assistance is going to be on the table no matter what happens.

I don't know much about it so I'd hesitate to outline a solid position but if I were living in Ireland, I'd have no issue with the state helping these people. If some solution isn't found, it'll be a bigger scandal than it is currently and there'll be chaos in the communities affected.

retalivity

How much did the pyrite redress cost?
Also, think this will turn out to be a lot more than 5k houses - that's whats been identified so far.

L1011

I would be in favour of providing redress here - but it may need to be provided in the form of entire replacement conventional houses in estates, in towns/village - not one-off 200-300sqm 'dormer bungalows' the size of small aircraft hangars as has become the vernacular style in Donegal in recent years.

This is an opportunity to fix some of the awful planning in Donegal that has ensured it is near impossible to provide proper services to the towns and villages that exist and has created total car dependency.

NIMAN

This is going to be a massive issue.

Its been known about since 2013 in Donegal, and at least a redress scheme was set up in 2019, but it wasn't really fit for purpose so is being rethought by Government.

It also affects Mayo.

And more worryingly, I heard a piece on radio today where houses in Clare and Limerick are falling down too. It appears we have let too much dodgy material out of quarries around the country for years, and its coming to bite us now.

I appreciate that many taxpayers won't be happy about paying for this as they aren't affected, but I don't see any other way. We have thousands of families still paying big mortgages on houses that have no value and which are crumbling dangerously. There is no way of suing the block supplier, the builders etc. No Homebond recourse. Banks not accepting liability for loaning on the asset, and insurance companies not liable either. So the owners have no choice but to ask Gov for help.

IF the State doesn't help, then there could be 5000 (bare minimum figure) in Donegal alone that are on the path to homelessness, and the State will have to house these people. I know personally there is next to no rental properties in the affected areas close to me, so a massive house building program will have to be undertaken.

Its a disaster of a situation, and I think we are going to see it get a lot worse if other parts of the country are affected. Not sure why some think it was ok to use taxpayers money to pay for other things in the state, but its grand to leave these families high and dry?

NIMAN

L1011 wrote: »

I would be in favour of providing redress here - but it may need to be provided in the form of entire replacement conventional houses in estates, in towns/village - not one-off 200-300sqm 'dormer bungalows' the size of small aircraft hangars as has become the vernacular style in Donegal in recent years.

This is an opportunity to fix some of the awful planning in Donegal that has ensured it is near impossible to provide proper services to the towns and villages that exist and has created total car dependency.

:rolleyes:
Is that you Leo?

Why does the size of someone's house matter at all?
They saved and built the home of their choice. Paid all the fees and charges and VAT on that home.
Took out a mortgage like everyone else in the country, making big repayments, but now you think they should relocate into a housing estate?

L1011

NIMAN wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Is that you Leo?

Why does the size of someone's house matter at all?
They saved and built the home of their choice. Paid all the fees and charges and VAT on that home.
Took out a mortgage like everyone else in the country, making big repayments, but now you think they should relocate into a housing estate?

If they expect the State to sort out their housing, yes.

One-off housing is not sustainable and Donegal is destroyed with it.

coylemj

The issue as I see it is that if the state agrees to a 100% redress scheme, it means we (the taxpayers) are signing up to what will effectively be a financial black hole involving unlimited liability. Never mind what numbers you're reading, you can triple them or just add an extra zero.

It's easy for the likes of Pearse Doherty (SF Donegal TD) to scream '100% redress'. Just wait for him to get into government and he'll be singing a different tune.

NIMAN

coylemj wrote: »

The issue as I see it is that if the state agrees to a 100% redress scheme, it means we (the taxpayers) are signing up to what will effectively be a financial black hole involving unlimited liability. Never mind what numbers you're reading, you can triple them or just add an extra zero.

It's easy for the likes of Pearse Doherty (SF Donegal TD) to scream '100% redress'. Just wait for him to get into government and he'll be singing a different tune.

For clarity, its not just SF that are calling for 100% redress.

In Donegal, McConnellogue (FF) and McHugh (FG) are also asking for it.

Furze99

Householders in Limerick & Clare also now looking for 100% redress. I'm going to have a look at our gaff later when I get home - there's a wee crack in the render. If 100% funding is good for the above, this could be a great scheme to investigate

[Deleted User]

NIMAN wrote: »

For clarity, its not just SF that are calling for 100% redress.

In Donegal, McConnellogue (FF) and McHugh (FG) are also asking for it.

Every Donegal politician better ask for it if they want to be reelected:)

Calahonda52

coylemj wrote: »

The issue as I see it is that if the state agrees to a 100% redress scheme, it means we (the taxpayers) are signing up to what will effectively be a financial black hole involving unlimited liability. Never mind what numbers you're reading, you can triple them or just add an extra zero.

It's easy for the likes of Pearse Doherty (SF Donegal TD) to scream '100% redress'. Just wait for him to get into government and he'll be singing a different tune.

Give the gig to BAM and add what ever number of zeros you think fit:D

NIMAN

Furze99 wrote: »

Householders in Limerick & Clare also now looking for 100% redress. I'm going to have a look at our gaff later when I get home - there's a wee crack in the render. If 100% funding is good for the above, this could be a great scheme to investigate

Demolishing your family home is not something most people will find easy to do.

Despite what most on Boards think.

fash

If there is an implied warranty on the part of the state in relation to construction issues in general, then regulation and construction costs in future are going to get expensive... or rather even more eye wateringly expensive.

coylemj

The practical effect of a Govt. 100% redress scheme is that a victim of this scandal can ask three local builders for a tender to demolish and rebuild his house. Knowing that the state is picking up the tab, the local builders will jack up their prices accordingly.

Hyperinflation will be too mild a word to describe what will happen.

Furze99

fash wrote: »

If there is an implied warranty on the part of the state in relation to construction issues in general, then regulation and construction costs in future are going to get expensive... or rather even more eye wateringly expensive.

100% - people should be careful what they wish for.

For Forks Sake

A rise in LPT in Donegal to offset some of the cost would sort those in genuine solidarity from the bandwagon hopping spoofers.

coylemj

For Forks Sake wrote: »

A rise in LPT in Donegal to offset some of the cost would sort those in genuine solidarity from the bandwagon hopping spoofers.

LPT would be a bad place to look for extra revenue. Income from LPT in the county in 2021 was just €26.8 million. Not sure what you have in mind when you talk about a 'rise' but I'm guessing it wouldn't make the tiniest dent in the redress bill.

There is a huge number of one-off houses in the county and for a valuation, the owner can pick a number out of the air. The result is that 90% of the houses in Donegal have an LPT valuation of less than 150K. Of course it will be a different matter when they need to be rebuilt.

https://www.donegalcoco.ie/services/financepublications/local%20property%20tax%20adjustment%20factor/

ednwireland

and clare and limerick to the list now as well

Swindled

Just to clarify, no one, including the taxpaying homeowners affected through no fault of theirs want the taxpayer to lumbered with the bill, but due to the mess and emergency that this is, the government is the only ones that can sort this out for now, and then should pursue those and the industries/sectors actually respsoibsile and recover as much of the costs as possible for the taxpayer. Also measures need to be put in place to ensure no mass manufacturing of structural materials for entire regions and nationwide can carry on like this in future. To date nothing has been done to prevent suppliers carrying on manufacturing supplying blocks with defective aggregates elsewhere in Ireland, and cases are now appearing nationwide. Lord knows what other structural materials not fit for purpose are also being mass manufactured out there for the Irish national market.

NIMAN

coylemj wrote: »

LPT would be a bad place to look for extra revenue. Income from LPT in the county in 2021 was just €26.8 million. Not sure what you have in mind when you talk about a 'rise' but I'm guessing it wouldn't make the tiniest dent in the redress bill.

There is a huge number of one-off houses in the county and for a valuation, the owner can pick a number out of the air. The result is that 90% of the houses in Donegal have an LPT valuation of less than 150K. Of course it will be a different matter when they need to be rebuilt.

https://www.donegalcoco.ie/services/financepublications/local%20property%20tax%20adjustment%20factor/

Well to be fair, most people would have valued their house based on what other similar houses in their area were selling for.

Thats what I did.

It might be tough to accept, but in Donegal a detached house on a half acre site would often cost less than a small apartment in Dublin.

[Deleted User]

A poster just mentioned this poll in the mica thread in the Donegal forum, which will obviously skew the results much more in favour of full payment by taxpayers that would otherwise have been if the poll was given to a random selection of people on boards with an interest in politics and the Irish economy versus a group of people who have a vested interest in getting a large sum of money from the government.

Swindled

The Sunday Business Post commissioned a national Red C at the weekend, poll shows that 71% of respondents believe the Government should provide a redress scheme to cover 100% of costs for those whose taxpayers who's homes are impacted by the mica block controversy.

A clear majority of the public support full compensation being given to owners of crumbling homes due to blocks containing mica, a new poll suggests.

https://extra.ie/2021/06/27/news/irish-news/clear-majority-of-public-support-full-compensation-for-mica-victims

The government of course should ensure the state recovers as much as possible for the taxpayer from those in the sectors and industries actually responsible.

Swindled

Furze99 wrote: »

Householders in Limerick & Clare also now looking for 100% redress. I'm going to have a look at our gaff later when I get home - there's a wee crack in the render. If 100% funding is good for the above, this could be a great scheme to investigate

The scheme rightly does not operate like that. Effected homeowners must first prove they have the contaminated blocks by spending € 6-8,000 having large concrete cores drilled and taken from throughout their house after being recommended to do so by a Chartered Engineer approved by the state. The cores then have to transported to to a lab in England for petrographic analysis by an accredited lab and chartered Geologist. (no labs in Ireland able to do it apparently). IF the accredited lab report confirms high levels of contamination and structurally deficient blocks, then the Charter Engineer makes further recommendations which are then submitted to the local authority for further scrutinisation and approval. If only the block manufactures in the first place were placed under the same level of scrutiny we would not be in this mess now or in the future.

[Deleted User]

We absolutely should have those testing facilities in Ireland with regular independent testing of quarries.

NIMAN

Swindled wrote: »

The scheme rightly does not operate like that. Effected homeowners must first prove they have the contaminated blocks by spending € 6-8,000 having large concrete cores drilled and taken from throughout their house after being recommended to do so by a Chartered Engineer approved by the state. The cores then have to transported to to a lab in England for petrographic analysis by a an accredited lab and chartered Geologist. (none labs in Ireland able to do it apparently). IF the lab report confirms high levels of contamination and structural deficient blocks, then the Charter Engineer makes further recommendations which are then submitted to the local authority for further scrutinisation and approval. If only the block manufactures in the first place were placed under the same level of scrutiny we would not be in this mess.

You forgot to add that when the English engineers advise demolition to the scheme, Donegal CoCo have often told homeowner that they need only replace outer leaf.

coylemj

NIMAN wrote: »

It might be tough to accept, but in Donegal a detached house on a half acre site would often cost less than a small apartment in Dublin.

It’s not in the least bit ’tough’ to accept that proposition and I do accept it.

My point is that those valuations for LPT purposes will be out the window when it comes to the bill those people will present to any redress scheme.

Another factor and one which is no fault of the home owners is that by the time they manage to rebuild, there will be much higher minimum standards for insulation and that’s going to push the bill even higher.

Who will pay? We will.

Swindled

coylemj wrote: »

My point is that those valuations for LPT purposes will be out the window when it comes to the bill those people will present to any redress scheme.

Proof of property tax payment must be presented for scrutinisation as well as many other conditions rightly required to access the redress scheme.

fash

Swindled wrote: »

Just to clarify, no one, including the taxpaying homeowners affected through no fault of theirs want the taxpayer to lumbered with the bill, but due to the mess and emergency that this is, the government is the only ones that can sort this out for now, and then should pursue those and the industries/sectors actually respsoibsile and recover as much of the costs as possible for the taxpayer.

If there were a way of recovering the money from those responsible, there would be no need for the government to be involved. The companies involved have gone insolvent already and sold their assets to the next company. What does "industry" or "sector" mean in this context - and why should law abiding people pay for something someone else has done? Would you be ok if the government decided that you and your family alone should bear the cost - even if it has nothing to do with you? If not, why not?

Also measures need to be put in place to ensure no mass manufacturing of structural materials for entire regions and nationwide can carry on like this in future.

Kerching, kerching.

Swindled

fash wrote: »

If there were a way of recovering the money from those responsible, there would be no need for the government to be involved. The companies involved have gone insolvent already and sold their assets to the next company. What does "industry" or "sector" mean in this context - and why should law abiding people pay for something someone else has done? Would you be ok if the government decided that you and your family alone should bear the cost - even if it has nothing to do with you? If not, why not?

Kerching, kerching.

Actually It's business as usual for the block manufacturer involved, they are currently suppling the state with blocks from the same quarry, for social housing projects and also supplying private developers. With no assistance or enforcement from the state, local taxpayers have been trying to blockade their lorries from getting into the sites, but some supplies are still getting through. The local authority recently granted the same quarry a 25 year extension to its planning permission, despite it being in breach of several existing planning conditions !

Absolutely, law abiding people should not pay for something someone else has done, that's the whole point, and the state is letting it continue to happen as we speak and no hassle or penalty whatsoever for the those responsible. Big industry and corporations do as they please in Ireland with complete freedom and the little Irish taxpaying victims pick up the tab.