bubblypop wrote: » I believe that the church had a stronghold on this country. They took over when the Brits left, courtesy of invitation by some extreme religious members of government. People didn't have the choice.
The church didn't just give up its hold on Irish society, people eventually fought back after being on the receiving end of systematic abuse and being 'ruled' by the church.
Is Australia not a multicultural society?
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Finally! :D:D:D I mean you have taken longer to reply to a yes or no question of mine but alright wibbs clearly no intention to try and annoy in your posting style towards me. So on this thread you have decried that there are no positives to multiculturalism. Now In answer to your question I present one and not one from your prescribed list of banned positives of multiculturalism ( I notice bubblypop is replying to you on that issue). But now you deflect and say oh everyone knows that one. So there is positives right? Multiculturalism is not a states immigration policy, it is not racism in that state it not is HR practises it is;https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/networks/european_migration_network/glossary_search/multiculturalism_en Is racism a constituent part of multiculturalism? I must have missed that in your definition of multiculturalism. Of for secular Jesus's sake, what is so important in your France 24 YouTube video. What is the big gotcha point I'm not seeing in this video. Is it that France is so bad with the foreigners that the national racist party of France won no districts in their recent elections? There is such disapproval by French citizens of multicultural politic that they, what just accepted the status quo in their most recent visit to the polls? A single video on a news channel is not in itself much evidence of anything.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Now you say racism is part of multiculturalism
really can you provide me a single source other than yourself than says racism is a constituent part of multiculturalism?
Then you go for the referendum rehash. This is not multiculturalism. The impact of the original amendment might be felt in that Irish society became more multicultural as a result but the referendum and resulting change is not a part of multiculturalism.
Multiculturalism is not restricted to open borders and can exist in states with controlled immigration. Is Australia not a multicultural society?
Kaybaykwah wrote: » Everything I said answers those questions to a degree. I don't get tbis fastidiousness over details. People aren't sheep, and I entertain the thought that maybe, some of us can get along, regardless of the country of our birth, our mother tongue and other matters, that to some are dismissed as divisive. I am convinced that Ireland is a better place than it was 40 years ago because the Irish, whatever their origin, are better able to withstand hardships, more nimble and wealthier.
Fandymo wrote: » Ireland must be a utopia. No housing issues, no homelessness, no criminals with 100+ convictions roaming the streets committing crimes. No issues whatsoever. No prefab schools. No health issues. Since there “is such disapproval by ‘Irish’ citizens of ‘current parish pump’ politic that they, what (sic) just accepted the status quo in their most recent visit to the polls? According to your logic Robbie.
Wibbs wrote: » I've been saying it and pointing to it as a negative throughout. Good lord man, how can you with a straight face begin to claim it's not? Have you missed all the BLM marches and debate throughout the multicultural West? Drive around Dublin for any length of time and you will see anti-racism campaign posters on buses supported by the Immigrant Council of Ireland and the National Transport Authority. Apparently they see it as an issue that needs a campaign against it. If racism wasn't a factor in multicultural nations why would it need to be spelled out? We didn't need it on 1980's buses when we were far more monocultural. Eh you don't see how one impact resulted in that vote? Australia, just like the US, Canada et al is an ex European colony founded upon immigration. This is a major difference compared to European nations. Never mind that there has been pushback and problems there. They cut off the supply of migrants coming across on boats. Something Europe hasn't done yet. And they've had their own far right party One Nation, that got a fair bit of support early on, then scandal ridden, buggered off only to come back and get a few people elected in recent years.
MikeOxsgreen wrote: » Hard to engage with people when they're not sure themselves what they're trying to say.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Sniping from the ditches again Mike. Do you want to address anything specific I have said. Or will you just throw around ad hominems some more?
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Of course you have been trying to link racism to multiculturalism. But you have yet to provide a source that includes racism as part of the definition of what multiculturalism is. Go one wibbs just one!
You have also been happy to dismiss any positives of multiculturalism as not being multiculturalism. Positive Cuisine and culture(Music sport and the arts) benefits to the host nation all dismissed as not multiculturalism.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Of course you have been trying to link racism to multiculturalism. But you have yet to provide a source that includes racism as part of the definition of what multiculturalism is. Go one wibbs just one! You have also been happy to dismiss any positives of multiculturalism as not being multiculturalism. Positive Cuisine and culture(Music sport and the arts) benefits to the host nation all dismissed as not multiculturalism. But racism by a small minority of the host people that's a negative of multiculturalism. An individual crime committed by an immigrant yeah that is another negative for multiculturalism. Its fallacious reasoning and nothing else.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Well to be honest the definition we are using does make a difference. As we have seen with this thread Multiculturalism means many different things to many different people throughout this thread. And so to avoid any suggestion of deflection or goal post moving by anyone I thought it would be better to try and agree a common understanding for what is meant by it for this question. Indeed even the EU acknowledges the issues with defining what multiculturalism means when presenting its own definition.Now lets go back to your definition. The first definition you offered isthe state or condition of being multicultural Do you really need me to declare the positives for this. Do I need to defend the very existence of someone who is multicultural?
MikeOxsgreen wrote: » Robbie, are you seriously arguing a negative reaction to multiculturalism is not an aspect of multiculturalism, but cooking is. And sports. I've yet to see cooking and sports in a definition of multiculturalism the noun. You're arguing two things at the same time. - a definition of a noun , and a meaning/outcome of the same noun. He can pull on his own big boy pants, bit IIRC, his definition (from below), and aspects of are two different things. I thought you'd acknowledged his definition... Good god man, get your argument in order.
Wibbs wrote: » You seem obsessed with definitions. When it suits. Racism and a lowering of wider social trust is a byproduct and a negative one of multiculturalism. It's an intrinsic part of it and demonstrably so. If you deny that you're denying a helluva lot of non native people's direct experience of this social experiment. Maybe you should ask Dr Ebun Joseph on the matter. She's based her entire career on it... Nope again. I have said that the positives of multiculturalism according to its defenders can only be summed up as charity and exoticism(with a local sideorder of "the Irish were migrants too"). There is also the "doctors and engineers" one which has become a meme on both sides. I have never denied them as positives on the surface, but that's all they are, surface and they're the only arrows in the diversity quiver. However the negatives are as has been demonstrated time and time again far easier to list and quantify in the real world. This can often be seen in commentary on multicultural nations. So you'll have an example of say a Black mayor of a city lauded as a positive of "diversity", while ignoring the fact that the very reason he or she is being noted is just as much as an exception to the average of those of their background. An equivalent White native mayor won't even register. AKA aren't we great Proinsias, nothing to see here and sure isn't it soooo thrilling we have an Uzbek cafe in [insert overwhelmingly native and White suburb here].
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Racism is a crime are you suggesting the fault of that crime lays at the feet of people who are multicultural. Real victim blaming stuff.
[Deleted User] wrote: » Oh come ON! He's saying that racism is a byproduct of multiculturalism. Which it obviously is. Monocultural societies have far, far less racism, because there are far, far less interactions between people of different ethnicities. Obviously. That is a blame-neutral commentary on what is, not an apportionment of blame.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » That is not true. China is as close to a mono culture as we can expect and the racism is endemic in the country. What evidence have you got to support your claim mono cultures are not racist?
Wibbs wrote: » Others: question asked. Points made. You: define question. Define definition. Go off on tangents. Avoid points. Critique others for doing so. Deflect. Others: Try to accede to your requests for ever more granular definitions. You: Answer question with the exact same non answers, or half answers as before. Play the victim hoping for a gotcha moment. Others: Frustration and a growing feeling of pointlessness, because answers aren't forthcoming, make little sense in the context of the discussion, or are the usual deflections. You are quick to accuse others of not debating in good faith, yet your input is steeped in same.
bubblypop wrote: » So one of the negatives of multiculturalism is racism. So in order to stop that nasty negative, we should have monocultural societies? Is that the argument?
Deleted User wrote: » China is a mono-culture if you consider China to be made up of just Chinese people. Whereas to the Chinese, there are 56 ethnic groups each with their own cultures. Then, on top of that, there are the Koreans, Mongolians, etc which are part of China but not considered ethnically Chinese. And then, there are the foreign populations, with tens of thousands of Muslims living in most cites, Japanese in the east, Thai and Vietnamese in the south, etc. all of whom have lived a long time in China, but would be considered foreign. In many ways, Japan is more of a monoculture than China is. China is only a monoculture in that the Han are dominant. Unassailable in that dominance, but there are many cultures living within China's borders. As for racism.. most Chinese aren't intentionally racist. They're ignorant of other cultures, and racial groups. I once visited the town in the countryside, and I was the first white person ever to go there (according to the local tradition of oral history). The first white person any of the locals had seen with their own eyes, and few of them had the opportunity to speak to me. They remain ignorant of other racial and cultural groups. Most of the racism that occurs in China is accidental, or unintentional. There are very strong themes of nationalism and cultural superiority for some people but honestly, such encounters are rare. All cultures have degrees of racism, because racism is a human condition due to our tribal attitudes that have not gone away over time. In spite of all the campaigning about racism, I've yet to see any definite plan with specific methods of removing racism entirely. Sure, it's an admirable goal, but it remains a vague objective, without any real consideration that it's very unlikely to ever be fulfilled.
Mic 1972 wrote: » I'm fine with that argument. People from other cultures are welcome to join as long as they integrate, which means become part of the local culture
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » My children are multicultural Irish children, if someone is racist to them is that their fault for being multicultural?
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » If they are a person of colour and receive racist abuse for the colour of their skin how should the integrate. A bottle of bleach?
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