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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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Larbre34

downcow wrote: »

That won’t be happening. U.K. is a democratic country. When we hold a referendum we try to have a little bit of integrity with the decision. I did not vote to leave but I respect that the majority of my nation did vote to leave. What you describe is not leaving.

I hate to point it out, but it's what is already happening.

And how you can say with a straight face that there was any "integrity" with that referendum is hilarious.

First, the referendum was advisory. Second, neither the referendum wording nor any of its supporters or detractors had any description of what the consequences of the outcome would be.

No less people than Farage and Rees-Mogg were out early on saying, there was no question of leaving the single market and customs union!!

Farage also said, if it comes out at 51/49 remain, it will be unfinished business! But of course the reverse was perfectly fine!

And then there's that great Churchillian state's woman, Prime Minister May, "Brexit means Brexit!!" jesus wept.

In Ireland when we hold referenda, its on constitutional specifics. Months are spent removing any ambiguity and every word is parsed and analysed, with a dispassionate legal opinion of both sides sent to all homes.

What the UK did was a farce. And internationally it has turned itself into an utter joke. The most egregious bit of mis-governance by a major world democracy of modern times.

Why should anyone be surprised that Ireland and the EU are using that consequent gaping ambiguity to maximum advantage.

In other countries, Cameron, May and Johnson would be put up against a wall for the harm they have overseen to Britain.

[Deleted User]

Larbre34 wrote: »

What the UK did was a farce. And internationally it has turned itself into an utter joke. The most egregious bit of mis-governance by a major world democracy of modern times.

To be fair to the UK, I think the US has bern even more of a misgoverned farce in the past four and a half years, and whatever the feck the DUP and Sinn Fein have been doing in Stormont after the RHI scandal.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hark, do I hear a Unionist gloating about how 'democratic' they are????

That cheered up my porridge no end.

Are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy of the unionist history of using gerrymandering to maintain an unfair dominance over NI or are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy to democracy that the unionists are rejoicing over a economically damaging referendum when it was rejected by their electorate or are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy over the DUP's covert advertising of a pro-Brexit stance outside of their constituency in an apparent attempt to subvert the democratic process or are you feeling cheerful over one of the many many other forms of hyprocrisy from the unionist side when it comes to democracy?
I'm just curious to know will the likes of downcow be as respectful of democracy when a eventual border poll gives a result that the unionists aren't happy with.

FrancieBrady

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy of the unionist history of using gerrymandering to maintain an unfair dominance over NI or are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy to democracy that the unionists are rejoicing over a economically damaging referendum when it was rejected by their electorate or are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy over the DUP's covert advertising of a pro-Brexit stance outside of their constituency in an apparent attempt to subvert the democratic process or are you feeling cheerful over one of the many many other forms of hyprocrisy from the unionist side when it comes to democracy?
I'm just curious to know will the likes of downcow be as respectful of democracy when a eventual border poll gives a result that the unionists aren't happy with.

downcow who previously said he could not guarantee his peacefulness in the event of a UI?
He has tried to walk back from saying that but I think it's a given that he won't respect the decision if it goes against him.

FrancieBrady

EU laying it on the line again. the flexibilities will be enacted if the UK implements the Protocol in full, as agreed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0628/1231742-sefcovic-protocol-stormont/

*Have to laugh at the last line. Is that not what happens Loyalists every 12th of July?

Larbre34

It certainly is.

And if they try their nonsense in Dublin also, I daresay they'll be sent home with something to remember their trip by.

FrancieBrady

Larbre34 wrote: »

It certainly is.

And if they try their nonsense in Dublin also, I daresay they'll be sent home with something to remember their trip by.

Bryson and his ilk are sending kids hoping there is violence. I hope they don't get their wish and there is a huge and jovial welcome for them on the streets. There should be bunting and flags put out.

It would properly scunder Bryson anyhow.

BonnieSituation

It strikes me that with the recent DUP nonsense and with Varadkar's UI pronouncements that the days of belligerent Unionist appeasement are over.

I'd say more and more forceful statements will continue to come out on the NIP from the EU side.

Obviously this will be undermined by the Mícheal Martin. But we can't have it all.

Larbre34

I don't think Martin is undermining it, it's just a bit of good cop, bad cop. Martin wants to keep the cross border institutions going above all else, but Government policy isn't ambiguous on the protocol.

[Deleted User]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/loyalists-plan-dublin-protest-over-protocol-40584328.html
Unionism is starting to look very thuggish, read Bryson's comments.

FrancieBrady

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/loyalists-plan-dublin-protest-over-protocol-40584328.html
Unionism is starting to look very thuggish, read Bryson's comments.

You can see Unionists on here 'setting up a win' on the Protocol. Jamie has already climbed down from the 'Protocol must go' stance to 'significant changes'.

The EU will get the British to use the easements within the Protocol and these guys will be on their keyboards claiming a win and Never Never Never will once again become Never Never Never ...ah shure go on. And they will be also be claiming the success of the Protocol as their own in due course, no doubt.

fash

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Language appears to be important, which might be why the term Brexit was used rather than UKexit (or some other "UK" based variant).

To be even more precise, it was "Brexit" not "Great Brexit" in acknowledgement of the fact that it would also end up being without Scotland.

BonnieSituation

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't think Martin is undermining it, it's just a bit of good cop, bad cop. Martin wants to keep the cross border institutions going above all else, but Government policy isn't ambiguous on the protocol.

Ah stop.

It's not good cop, bad cop at all.

Martin has been repeatedly shown to be out of his depth when it comes to diplomacy.

Always with the trying to please both sides shíte.

Look at how Covid reopening decisions have been made since he took the helm.

But that gets away from my central point, time is up for belligerent Unionism.

BonnieSituation

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/loyalists-plan-dublin-protest-over-protocol-40584328.html
Unionism is starting to look very thuggish, read Bryson's comments.

"Peaceful protest?" and "uncomfortable"

I'm intrigued by this dichotomy.

As Irish citizens they are more than welcome to protest peacefully on the streets of the capital city of their nation. Subject to Covid guidelines of course.

[Deleted User]

It's genuinely a bit depressing, they don't feel they can get anywhere through politics, so coming down to Dublin to start trouble is the next best thing.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can see Unionists on here 'setting up a win' on the Protocol. Jamie has already climbed down from the 'Protocol must go' stance to 'significant changes'.

The EU will get the British to use the easements within the Protocol and these guys will be on their keyboards claiming a win and Never Never Never will once again become Never Never Never ...ah shure go on. And they will be also be claiming the success of the Protocol as their own in due course, no doubt.

I'd imagine when a United Ireland actually happens the unionists would eventually somehow spin it as a victory for their side while still being extremely antagonistic towards everybody else.

CaoimhinCong

There was protests throughout the shankill with the whiterock parade on Saturday just gone. And I'd imagine it to be the same on this Saturday as it's Trevor king. 2 of biggest parades outside the 12th for them. It doesn't seem like loyalists are that shot over the protocol alot of talk by the same mouthpieces but when it comes to action it's null an void.

[Deleted User]

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's genuinely a bit depressing, they don't feel they can get anywhere through politics, so coming down to Dublin to start trouble is the next best thing.

Considering that the Irish Protocal was heavily pushed by Boris Johnson in order to get Brexit done as soon as possible, wouldn't it be more effective for the unionists to protest in London, as opposed to Dublin? After all, it is Westminster rather than Sinn Fein that ended up enacting most of the other changes in Northern Ireland that unionists dislike, such as gay marriage, aborrion rights, and the Irish language act.

Larbre34

They already know they would get ignored in London, as much by the politicians as by the public.

They just want to drive to Dublin and start a fight. And that's what they'll get one suspects.

FrancieBrady

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

I'd imagine when a United Ireland actually happens the unionists would eventually somehow spin it as a victory for their side while still being extremely antagonistic towards everybody else.

When you see Jamie selling disrupting Dublin as a win, not doubt it could happen alright.

Seth Brundle

Larbre34 wrote: »

They just want to drive to Dublin and start a fight. And that's what they'll get one suspects.

I think were the terrorists and criminals to travel "abroad" to Dublin looking for a fight, AGS will be ready for them. I would doubt that any streets their bus stops on would remain open to the public and the only ones in close proximity would be AGS and the media.
If the terrorists started any aggro with AGS then they would soon find out how efficient AGS can be when it wants to be.

Seth Brundle

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

Considering that the Irish Protocal was heavily pushed by Boris Johnson in order to get Brexit done as soon as possible, wouldn't it be more effective for the unionists to protest in London, as opposed to Dublin? After all, it is Westminster rather than Sinn Fein that ended up enacting most of the other changes in Northern Ireland that unionists dislike, such as gay marriage, aborrion rights, and the Irish language act.

That would involve logical thought. The DUP don't think that way at all - never did and never will.
Their terrorist & criminal buddies in the LCC simply want less checks so that they can continue their criminal enterprises.

fash

Question to the audience: does anyone see a parallel between unionist criticism of the protocol and Brexiter criticism of the EU- in that in both instances they are very vague about their alternative solution.
So, foment, foment, foment, sell a vague picture of "something better", try to bounce the rubes into supporting you, then if you get support, scorch the earth and ram through what you want?

downcow

fash wrote: »

Downcow, I'm sure you agree that those who agitated for a change to the status quo (unionist Brexiters) are the ones who reasonably ought to pay any price that must be paid for brexit?
And that those who rejected the change to the status quo because of its consequences should pay the least price - or no price at all?

Unionist brexiteeers did not influence the vote. The margin was much greater.

downcow

Peregrinus wrote: »

If Brexiters seriously think that a referendum is like a soccer game, well, that would explain why the implementation of Brexit has been such a shambolic parade of ineptitude, incompetence and folly for the past five years.

Any course of action which results in the UK no longer appearing on the Wikipedia page "List of Member States of the European Union" honours the referendum outcome because that is, literally, the only question that the people were - then or later - permitted to express a view on.

If you want to argue that this form of Brexit rather than that form is "more true to the Brexit result" - and it was Downcow who introduced this notion in to the conversation - then you have to be prepared to draw inferences from the detailed results of the referendum, and the first thing you note is the narrow margin of victory overall, and the fact that two out of the four constituent parts of the UK rejected Brexit on any terms. That gives you some pretty strong clues as to what kind of Brexit is best calculated to secure the broadest possible assent from the people.

Seriously, if you're claiming to be looking for a Brexit which is "more true to the Brexit result", and at the same time arguing that these facts of the referendum result are irrelevant - well, you're not well positioned to be throwing accusations of hypocrisy at others. Just sayin'.

Would you apply the same thinking to a 52:48 UI vote. Just sayin’

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Would you apply the same thinking to a 52:48 UI vote. Just sayin’

If it's 52:48 in favour of a UI it's game over for partition.

The other way 'round, it's just the end of round 1.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Unionist brexiteeers did not influence the vote. The margin was much greater.

Erm, what about the DUP's advert in London's Metro newspaper using questionable funding?

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy of the unionist history of using gerrymandering to maintain an unfair dominance over NI or are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy to democracy that the unionists are rejoicing over a economically damaging referendum when it was rejected by their electorate or are you feeling cheerful because of downcow's hypocrisy over the DUP's covert advertising of a pro-Brexit stance outside of their constituency in an apparent attempt to subvert the democratic process or are you feeling cheerful over one of the many many other forms of hyprocrisy from the unionist side when it comes to democracy?
I'm just curious to know will the likes of downcow be as respectful of democracy when a eventual border poll gives a result that the unionists aren't happy with.

Sure you guys are saying that if it’s close then we find some halfway house. Or is that different?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Would you apply the same thinking to a 52:48 UI vote. Just sayin’

Any border poll would not be as poorly structured over the non-binding binary Brexit vote.
Whilst such a narrow margin is not ideal, it is written that 52% result would be deemed more than enough (as agreed by the people via the GFA)

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Bryson and his ilk are sending kids hoping there is violence. I hope they don't get their wish and there is a huge and jovial welcome for them on the streets. There should be bunting and flags put out.

It would properly scunder Bryson anyhow.

You are exactly right Francie. But we both know the republicans will be out wrecking the city as the bands are on their coaches back to the north