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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

Then the nonsense of a close referendum meaning ‘nearly a draw’. Haha tell Portugal that about the game last night.

If Brexiters seriously think that a referendum is like a soccer game, well, that would explain why the implementation of Brexit has been such a shambolic parade of ineptitude, incompetence and folly for the past five years.

Any course of action which results in the UK no longer appearing on the Wikipedia page "List of Member States of the European Union" honours the referendum outcome because that is, literally, the only question that the people were - then or later - permitted to express a view on.

If you want to argue that this form of Brexit rather than that form is "more true to the Brexit result" - and it was Downcow who introduced this notion in to the conversation - then you have to be prepared to draw inferences from the detailed results of the referendum, and the first thing you note is the narrow margin of victory overall, and the fact that two out of the four constituent parts of the UK rejected Brexit on any terms. That gives you some pretty strong clues as to what kind of Brexit is best calculated to secure the broadest possible assent from the people.

Seriously, if you're claiming to be looking for a Brexit which is "more true to the Brexit result", and at the same time arguing that these facts of the referendum result are irrelevant - well, you're not well positioned to be throwing accusations of hypocrisy at others. Just sayin'.

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

Haha. Nonsense on every point.
Our people have every right to agitate in Roi for them to stop using our peace process for their own ends. If roi claim they want to protect the gfa then they need to realise that that means supporting all aspects of gfa and grow up into a big nation that can see more than a narrow nationalist view and support all people of be equally.

Then the nonsense of a close referendum meaning ‘nearly a draw’. Haha tell Portugal that about the game last night. And you’ll have Francie and friends choking on his Ulster fry - telling him that a close UI referendum will result in a fudge that means U.K. maintains much control over ni. Junkyard Tom will ate you lol.

But hey, hypocrisy was never a problem for many on here

Ye do not have the right to protest in Dublin inciting violence. Ye signed up to the Protocol, respect it and make it work. Think about ways of making NI a good place for both communities and not maybe on marching where ye are not wanted, burning Irish flags and threatening Irish Govt Ministers. If only there was leadership on the Unionist side and not simply hatred for anything Irish.
Hypocrisy, you mean like signing up to an agreement and then pretending you didn't.

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

That won’t be happening. U.K. is a democratic country. When we hold a referendum we try to have a little bit of integrity with the decision. I did not vote to leave but I respect that the majority of my nation did vote to leave. What you describe is not leaving.

First of all trying to claim the UK is democratic while FPTP has only allowed for 1 Government that was a coalition, be elected by a majority of votes in 80 years is hilarious.

Secondly you know as well as everybody that you could have asked 10 brexit voters what they were voting for on referendum day and gotten 10 different answers, so you cannot say what is or isnt Brexit because nobody knw then and nobody knows now as it still changes every other month.

fash

downcow wrote: »

Haha. Nonsense on every point.
Our people have every right to agitate in Roi for them to stop using our peace process for their own ends. If roi claim they want to protect the gfa then they need to realise that that means supporting all aspects of gfa and grow up into a big nation that can see more than a narrow nationalist view and support all people of be equally.

Then the nonsense of a close referendum meaning ‘nearly a draw’. Haha tell Portugal that about the game last night. And you’ll have Francie and friends choking on his Ulster fry - telling him that a close UI referendum will result in a fudge that means U.K. maintains much control over ni. Junkyard Tom will ate you lol.

But hey, hypocrisy was never a problem for many on here

Downcow, I'm sure you agree that those who agitated for a change to the status quo (unionist Brexiters) are the ones who reasonably ought to pay any price that must be paid for brexit?
And that those who rejected the change to the status quo because of its consequences should pay the least price - or no price at all?

fash

downcow wrote: »

That won’t be happening. U.K. is a democratic country. When we hold a referendum we try to have a little bit of integrity with the decision. I did not vote to leave but I respect that the majority of my nation did vote to leave. What you describe is not leaving.

I like the way you can speak on behalf of 17 million as to what they meant by "leaving the EU" - when the vast majority thought they would remain within the single market (as they were repeatedly told).

Speedline

You don't get it. It's simply a trade deal where NI gain an advantage over the rest of the UK with access to the EU market. And yous are crying about it.

downcow

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, baby steps. It's not that long ago that Downcow was talking about protesting in Dublin to try to effect change to UK law. It's now dawning on him that if you want to get UK law changed, your efforts need to directed at the UK government.

And we should also welcome his aim of getting the UK government to be more true to the brexit result. The Brexit result disclosed (a) a Northern Ireland that didn't want to Brexit at all, on any terms, and (b) a UK that was almost evenly divided over the merits of Brexit on any terms, but that had a narrow majority for Brexit on some terms. I'm hardly the first to recognise that what this points to is a very soft Brexit, as the Brexit most likely to command the assent of a critical mass of the UK population and most likely to minimise the harm inflicted on NI. I welcome Downcow's rejection of the hard brexit foisted on the UK by the certified loon wing of the Tory party, and his call for a Brexit more true to the referendum result.

Haha. Nonsense on every point.
Our people have every right to agitate in Roi for them to stop using our peace process for their own ends. If roi claim they want to protect the gfa then they need to realise that that means supporting all aspects of gfa and grow up into a big nation that can see more than a narrow nationalist view and support all people of be equally.

Then the nonsense of a close referendum meaning ‘nearly a draw’. Haha tell Portugal that about the game last night. And you’ll have Francie and friends choking on his Ulster fry - telling him that a close UI referendum will result in a fudge that means U.K. maintains much control over ni. Junkyard Tom will ate you lol.

But hey, hypocrisy was never a problem for many on here

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

That’s not how a democracy works. You are completely free to work and agitate for change in a democratic country. If the government could be convinced that there should be another referendum and if the remainers won it then that’s entirely legitimate. That hasn’t happened.
We can work to convince our government that they must be more true to the brexit result. We can also fight it in court. Both are happening.

Well, baby steps. It's not that long ago that Downcow was talking about protesting in Dublin to try to effect change to UK law. It's now dawning on him that if you want to get UK law changed, your efforts need to directed at the UK government.

And we should also welcome his aim of getting the UK government to be more true to the brexit result. The Brexit result disclosed (a) a Northern Ireland that didn't want to Brexit at all, on any terms, and (b) a UK that was almost evenly divided over the merits of Brexit on any terms, but that had a narrow majority for Brexit on some terms. I'm hardly the first to recognise that what this points to is a very soft Brexit, as the Brexit most likely to command the assent of a critical mass of the UK population and most likely to minimise the harm inflicted on NI. I welcome Downcow's rejection of the hard brexit foisted on the UK by the certified loon wing of the Tory party, and his call for a Brexit more true to the referendum result.

downcow

cantwbr1 wrote: »

So why not accept the democratic will of the people as expressed through the NIP and trade agreement negotiated and legislated by your government as the best possible deal available

That’s not how a democracy works. You are completely free to work and agitate for change in a democratic country. If the government could be convinced that there should be another referendum and if the remainers won it then that’s entirely legitimate. That hasn’t happened.
We can work to convince our government that they must be more true to the brexit result. We can also fight it in court. Both are happening.

cantwbr1

downcow wrote: »

That won’t be happening. U.K. is a democratic country. When we hold a referendum we try to have a little bit of integrity with the decision. I did not vote to leave but I respect that the majority of my nation did vote to leave. What you describe is not leaving.

So why not accept the democratic will of the people as expressed through the NIP and trade agreement negotiated and legislated by your government as the best possible deal available

downcow

Larbre34 wrote: »

No new deal on the protocol. None.

It's time to begin the individual agreements covering sectoral trade and vetinary and phyto sanitary standards. The British really have no choice but to mirror the EU standards in all respects unless they want to see a further slippage in an already catastrophic situation.

The upside for everyone is, those agreements should gradually obviate the Protocol, which was of course an insurance policy all along.

And Donaldson can eff off. Ireland didn't cheerlead the protocol, we WROTE it, precisely to protect our own interests. That's what you can do when you hold all the cards!

Let the 12th come and go, the conservative unionists and the LCC can just swallow it.

That won’t be happening. U.K. is a democratic country. When we hold a referendum we try to have a little bit of integrity with the decision. I did not vote to leave but I respect that the majority of my nation did vote to leave. What you describe is not leaving.

bilbot79

salonfire wrote: »

I love the way the ROI now has the power via the EU to put the balls of the UK in a vice and screw. That's what should be done if the UK continue their antics in Ireland.

Shut down Calais to them.

Well....

That's the thick people's version of what's going on. Meanwhile the Irish taoiseach is like 'i hope to God the EU and the Unionists work it out

The reason the EU are such a big deal here is because as Naomi Long says, this is NOT a constitutional question this is a trade question!

DrumSteve

Why should we agree anything with the brits at this stage; they have shown they won't keep up with their end anyway.

Larbre34

No new deal on the protocol. None.

It's time to begin the individual agreements covering sectoral trade and vetinary and phyto sanitary standards. The British really have no choice but to mirror the EU standards in all respects unless they want to see a further slippage in an already catastrophic situation.

The upside for everyone is, those agreements should gradually obviate the Protocol, which was of course an insurance policy all along.

And Donaldson can eff off. Ireland didn't cheerlead the protocol, we WROTE it, precisely to protect our own interests. That's what you can do when you hold all the cards!

Let the 12th come and go, the conservative unionists and the LCC can just swallow it.

briany

Hey, British government... If you think that a deal doesn't work for you, don't sign it in the first place.

FrancieBrady

skimpydoo wrote: »

If a new deal was agreed? How long would it take for the Brits to change their minds yet again? Boris and co can't be trusted.

3 months not to read it.
4 months for Unionists to realise they messed up.
2 years + for the UK to tell Unionists they'll sort it out while they read it searching for the easements built into it.

BonnieSituation

skimpydoo wrote: »

If a new deal was agreed? How long would it take for the Brits to change their minds yet again? Boris and co can't be trusted.

About 3-4 days. Essentially as long as it takes for someone to complain about it.

skimpydoo

If a new deal was agreed? How long would it take for the Brits to change their minds yet again? Boris and co can't be trusted.

FrancieBrady

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It will depend on what is wrong with them.
Downcow is suggesting that an antibiotic is used for pretty much anything which is not the case.

Because downcow is getting away with misusing AB's the Protocol should be dropped.

Seth Brundle

flos1964 wrote: »

Dont know about off colour calves but sick cattle, sheep whatever you go for the penicillin ...what else are you going to do, pay a vet a hundred euros for a visit to the yard to do the same.

It will depend on what is wrong with them.
Downcow is suggesting that an antibiotic is used for pretty much anything which is not the case.

flos1964

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ah, right. So because you keep company with ignorant farmers (presumably of the Northern Irish variety?) you're tarring all the rest with the same brush? But the Aussies get a free pass because you read something about their cows eating grass and being left to die.

Yeah. Makes prefect sense. :rolleyes:

Dont know about off colour calves but sick cattle, sheep whatever you go for the penicillin ...what else are you going to do, pay a vet a hundred euros for a visit to the yard to do the same.

flos1964

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This is not normal. You're either exaggerating or you need to change your vet!

It is normal.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

Wrong again. Farmers keep a supply of antibiotics and first sign of an off colour calf and it gets a jab

Ah, right. So because you keep company with ignorant farmers (presumably of the Northern Irish variety?) you're tarring all the rest with the same brush? But the Aussies get a free pass because you read something about their cows eating grass and being left to die.

Yeah. Makes prefect sense. :rolleyes:

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

But still more checks from Gb into ni than turkey into Eu. Remarkable

What you're highlighting here is the level of ideological stupidity of a hard DUP/Tory Brexit that has Turkey more in line with EU trading/goods norms than Britain.

You won't get away with laying the blame for an extreme DUP/Tory Brexit at the feet of the Irish people (north and south), the Irish Government, and the EU.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

And you should ask your mp why Eu is protecting you from dodgy food from U.K. but not from turkey

What foodstuff is Turkey sending into the EU that the EU does not permit?
Have you examples of Turkey wanting to import below standard foods from third countries?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Wrong again. Farmers keep a supply of antibiotics and first sign of an off colour calf and it gets a jab

I've worked on a number of farms of all types (beef, dairy, sheep & pigs as well as tillage).
Antibiotic usage isn't routine for an "off colour calf". Maybe it is for your farm though.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Says a lot about the UK government's implementation of the agreement!
You should ask your MP why they are not making sure that the NIP is being fully implemented and why the UK doesn't agree to the EU's food production standards to ensure minimal checks between the two islands.

And you should ask your mp why Eu is protecting you from dodgy food from U.K. but not from turkey

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

But still more checks from Gb into ni than turkey into Eu. Remarkable

Says a lot about the UK government's implementation of the agreement!
You should ask your MP why they are not making sure that the NIP is being fully implemented and why the UK doesn't agree to the EU's food production standards to ensure minimal checks between the two islands.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I never claimed to be one.
However, whilst farmers administer the medication it is based on advice. Who advises you to treat your beasts with an antibiotic for "any ailment"?
Are you treating your animals based on your own initiative or on actual veterinary knowledge?

EU standards for beef and lamb production are the highest in the world. Who do you think produces superior quality meat?

Wrong again. Farmers keep a supply of antibiotics and first sign of an off colour calf and it gets a jab

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Well I don’t know it, hence I said that I don’t know much.
You may well be correct. I’ll see what google tells me. I was dispelling nonsense by a number of posters who were trying to tell me that the Eu was protecting us from antibiotics in meat, that’s all

You are exactly right. The issue is growth promoters. While I would be opposed to these as I like animals keep as naturally as possible the risk to humans seems small compared to some of the stuff currently available in Eu eg https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/deadly-pesticides-in-eu-produce-from-turkey/a-52142826.
But still more checks from Gb into ni than turkey into Eu. Remarkable