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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Continued on from previous threads. Title can be decided if we get better suggestions than the placeholder. We may run a poll.

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arsebiscuits1

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Of any forward, talking about number 8's not back play.

Then specify that?

Honestly, you're happy to jump down everyones throats in 2 threads this morning in a pretty unhelpful tone.

Getting a real inferiority complex vibe of you right now

TRC10

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

If you're basing your entire argument about him not being a good offloader, I'm telling you he is a better offloader that either Conan or Doris, so it's nonsense to begin with.
He is the future at number 8 for Ireland, if Andy Farrell doesn't see it then that's his loss.

Once again, I never said he wasn't a good offlaoder.

You're basing your entire argument on "he's Ireland's best 8, I can't give any reasons for that, I just say he is, therefore he is"

I'm not saying he isn't a good 8. I'm saying I think he's more for a 6, which you seem to be very unhappy about. Now you're free to disagree. But don't just say "he's Ireland's best 8, end of". Give reasons.

ineedeuro

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

If you're basing your entire argument about him not being a good offloader, I'm telling you he is a better offloader that either Conan or Doris, so it's nonsense to begin with.
He is the future at number 8 for Ireland, if Andy Farrell doesn't see it then that's his loss.

I doubt Farrell will, or the rest of Ireland to be honest because he isn't.
He had one ok season, didn't win anything and even young player of the season went to someone else.
It seems you are rating him higher than the rest of rugby World

As I said he could be, hard to tell after one season

sydthebeat

Former Former Former

We need both Coombes and Doris to be top level players. We don't have huge depth at 6 and 8, in terms of guys who look like being tier 1 test quality.

ineedeuro

Former Former Former wrote: »

We need both Coombes and Doris to be top level players. We don't have huge depth at 6 and 8, in terms of guys who look like being tier 1 test quality.

We need as many players as possible. I would also throw Deegan into the mix he was showing great promise till injury stalled his career.

Also need the likes of Penny to continue his progress.

salmocab

Former Former Former wrote: »

We need both Coombes and Doris to be top level players. We don't have huge depth at 6 and 8, in terms of guys who look like being tier 1 test quality.

This is the rugby forum, pick a side stick to it and claim provincialism with whoever you disagree with whilst blithely ignoring yourself doing the same thing.

TRC10

I should have known when I tried to spark some healthy rugby discussion by suggesting Coombes' best position might be 6, that it would inevitably descend into a Coombes vs Doris provincial pissing contest.

My sincerest apologies for my stupidity.

ineedeuro

TRC10 wrote: »

I should have known when I tried to spark some healthy rugby discussion by suggesting Coombes' best position might be 6, that it would inevitably descend into a Coombes vs Doris provincial pissing contest.

My sincerest apologies for my stupidity.

Just to throw some petrol onto the fire
I don't see the point of bringing POM for these two games. We should have used the chance to bring some other players into the setup

AbusesToilets

ineedeuro wrote: »

Just to throw some petrol onto the fire
I don't see the point of bringing POM for these two games. We should have used the chance to bring some other players into the setup

I don't see the point in POM being near a test jersey ever again. Waste of a spot.

:pac:

TRC10

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't see the point in POM being near a test jersey ever again. Waste of a spot.

:pac:

I heard Simon Zebo has posters of Hugo Keenan on his bedroom wall

ineedeuro

TRC10 wrote: »

I heard Simon Zebo has posters of Hugo Keenan on his bedroom wall

He also bought Keenan PJ to replace his Rob Kearney ones :P

Clegg

It's good to have options going forward. I can see a future where Beirne and Coombes and competing for the 6 jersey and Conan/Doris the 8. They're good headaches to worry about.

I'm not going to wade into a Doris Vs Coombes debate. Only thing I will say is that one has excelled at test level while the other is yet to be capped. Let's wait to see what Coombes can do at the highest level first.

TRC10

ineedeuro wrote: »

He also bought Keenan PJ to replace his Rob Kearney ones :P

Yeah I heard that too to be fair

aloooof

ineedeuro wrote: »

He had one ok season…

It seems you are rating him higher than the rest of rugby World

You really think he only had an ok season?

On the contrary, I’d suggest you’re rating him lower than practically everyone else, even those who would have Doris / Conan at 8 ahead of him.

sprucemoose

Clegg wrote: »

I'm not going to wade into a Doris Vs Coombes debate. Only thing I will say is that one has excelled at test level while the other is yet to be capped.

sorry but which one of them has excelled? doris has been average to good for ireland so far, but i definitely wouldnt say he has excelled

TomsOnTheRoof

Clegg wrote: »

It's good to have options going forward. I can see a future where Beirne and Coombes and competing for the 6 jersey and Conan/Doris the 8. They're good headaches to worry about.

I'm not going to wade into a Doris Vs Coombes debate. Only thing I will say is that one has excelled at test level while the other is yet to be capped. Let's wait to see what Coombes can do at the highest level first.

Coombes should have been capped in the Spring. Also, Doris has played well but to say he has excelled is an exaggeration.

TRC10

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Coombes should have been capped in the Spring. Also, Doris has played well but to say he has excelled is an exaggeration.

Ah come on now.

I think Coombes is deadly and will be a great player for Ireland.

But a few months good form doesn't mean he should have been picked ahead of experienced internationals like O'Mahony, Ruddock, Stander and Conan.

Now he's had a brilliant season, but in Spring, he'd been in good form for a few months. Saying he should have been capped in the 6 Nations is retrospective analysis.

He's had a great season and now he's got his chance and rightly so. But he should have been playing in the 6 Nations? Nah.

Clegg

Doris was Ireland's best player in the Autumn Cup. Only had a few caps to his name in that as well.

That's excelling for me.

OneLungDavy

Clegg wrote: »

Doris was Ireland's best player in the Autumn Cup. Only had a few caps to his name in that as well.

That's excelling for me.

Yeah he had a poor game against France but he was probably our best player in the others. He proved he can perform very well at international level, if that's not excelling I don't know what is.

Dubinusa

For me, Conan is the best 8 in Ireland. But like everything else, it's just my opinion. Then there's Conans's injury issues. Doris is a good player and so is Coombes. Who knows, Boyle might get a chance and excel! He also had a fantastic season, but being in Connacht kind of hinders him. Hinders him to the point that he doesn't get to play knockout Euro rugby. Timoney is a different animal. He's easily the fastest 8 and has really stepped up. 8 is a very strong position for us. Consider that Deegan missed the entire year! I think Coombes will get his chance in a few weeks. But, it's also an opportunity to get a look at Boyle and Timoney.

TRC10

Dubinusa wrote: »

For me, Conan is the best 8 in Ireland. But like everything else, it's just my opinion. Then there's Conans's injury issues. Doris is a good player and so is Coombes. Who knows, Boyle might get a chance and excel! He also had a fantastic season, but being in Connacht kind of hinders him. Hinders him to the point that he doesn't get to play knockout Euro rugby. Timoney is a different animal. He's easily the fastest 8 and has really stepped up. 8 is a very strong position for us. Consider that Deegan missed the entire year! I think Coombes will get his chance in a few weeks. But, it's also an opportunity to get a look at Boyle and Timoney.

I'd be very surprised if we see Boyle at 8. It's only 2 games and theres 2 specialist 8s already there.

A simple person like myself looks at the squad and sees 6 backrowers evenly distributed between each position.

6-Coombes and Boyle
7-VDF and POM
8-Doris and Timoney

Richie_Rich89

TRC10 wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if we see Boyle at 8. It's only 2 games and theres 2 specialist 8s already there.

A simple person like myself looks at the squad and sees 6 backrowers evenly distributed between each position.

6-Coombes and Boyle
7-VDF and POM
8-Doris and Timoney

Yeah, that's probably right, but I don't get why they are shoe-horning 8s into 6. I think they should select out-and-out blindsides like Wycherley, Josh Murphy, O'Donoghue and McCann.

Yeah_Right

I think both Coombes and Doris are exciting prospects and could have long international careers. If it's a case off one starting and one coming off the bench that's great as I think either of them would a fantastic impact player. If they are both on the field at the same time, I'd go with Coombes at 8. I think his pace and power from the back of the scrum is better than Doris.

TRC10

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Yeah, that's probably right, but I don't get why they are shoe-horning 8s into 6. I think they should select out-and-out blindsides like Wycherley, Josh Murphy, O'Donoghue and McCann.

I don't think they are shoehorning. Boyle is definitely a 6 IMO, as is Coombes and I think Farrell see's him as a 6 too.

If we were going to see Coombes at 8 he'd have picked another flanker like Penney or JOD and have left out Timoney, who is purely an 8.

It's unlikely we'll see more than two 8s used in 2 games

El_Duderino 09

This Nathan Doak is having an excellent game for Ireland under 20s at scrum half at the moment. Looks really confident and like he's been doing this stuff all his life. Hope he can break through for ulster this year and develop.

shootermacg

Coombes is the type of back row, we rarely get in Ireland. 6'6 hugely powerful, great step into contact, good offloading skills and has room for another few Kg on his frame.

I see him as an 8 he's just too powerful not be be an 8. Also has a rake of turnovers this season.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Coombes is the type of back row, we rarely get in Ireland. 6'6 hugely powerful, great step into contact, good offloading skills and has room for another few Kg on his frame.

I see him as an 8 he's just too powerful not be be an 8. Also has a rake of turnovers this season.

This reasoning doesn't make much sense to me.

Stephen Ferris, Jerome Kaino, Jerry Collins, Schalk Burger.

All incredibly powerful, all 6s.

Coombes could be an absolute monster at 6. Breakdown, lineout, carrying, all huge strengths.

But I fear by playing him at 8, we run into the same issue we had with Stander. Now I'm not saying Coombes can't offload and has no footwork or capacity to attack space, but they aren't his prime strengths.

My main point is, with the direction Ireland are looking to move their game, I think Ireland would be best to utilise a power player like Coombes at 6, with a Doris/Timoney/Conan type player at 8.

I'd love to see a backrow next week of...
6-Coombes
7-VDF
8-Doris

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

This reasoning doesn't make much sense to me.

Stephen Ferris, Jerome Kaino, Jerry Collins, Schalk Burger.

All incredibly powerful, all 6s.

Coombes could be an absolute monster at 6. Breakdown, lineout, carrying, all huge strengths.

But I fear by playing him at 8, we run into the same issue we had with Stander. Now I'm not saying Coombes can't offload and has no footwork or capacity to attack space, but they aren't his prime strengths.

My main point is, with the direction Ireland are looking to move their game, I think Ireland would be best to utilise a power player like Coombes at 6, with a Doris/Timoney/Conan type player at 8.

I'd love to see a backrow next week of...
6-Coombes
7-VDF
8-Doris

TRC10 wrote: »

But for me, he's quick, but I don't see the mobility, footwork and offloading ability that an 8 would ideally have.

Sorry bud, but you literally know nothing about Coombes. He's been knocking over players like skittles off the base of the scrum. He's the type of player Leinster are missing when it comes to playing the bigger teams as we've witnessed again this season.

Dorris is a very good player, but the best 8s in rugby are the ones that punch holes. If you want a linkman with "a step" you're probably thinking of a openside. And maybe that's where you see Dorris then.

errlloyd

I have never understood peoples fascination with whether a player plays 6 or 8. The amount of impacts a player has from the scrum compared to around the park in general is minimal. In a good game we'll have fewer that 10 attacking scrums, only 6 of them will complete, and only 3 of them will involve the number 8 picking and going from the base.

It doesn't matter. And the defensive side of it is probably more important if it does.