Alwandy wrote: » Sigh, Bible verses about stoning:https://biblia.com/bible/esv/leviticus/20/27https://biblia.com/bible/esv/exodus/21/28https://biblia.com/bible/esv/deuteronomy/22/24 I can keep going if wanted? Now to answer your questions about muslims: 1. Treatment of Women, by Prophet Muhammed statements we are supposedly to respect our wifes, treat them with kindness and offer them everything. If you actually read the Qu'ran you would read some statements such as: The man shall bring the money for the family while the woman who makes money shall keep it for herself. It is a man duty to feed the family and take care of his wife .. More in depth if you read it properly which you haven't.
Alwandy wrote: » 2. Stoning on gays, sadly this includes all three Abrahamic religions. I do not agree with it as I do not like life being taken away (1 Tour Afghanistan, trust me I know how it is) but yes it is said so in Qu'ran, though most muslims agrees it is not theirs to judge rather than Allah himself. In other words, it is not my business and I'm flattered if a gay person flirts with me.
Alwandy wrote: » 3. Marrying 12 year olds, I'm sure you referencing to our prophet Mohammed, this was quite a norm back in the days even in Europe, the royal families tried to keep the bloodline clean etc by doing inbred work
Alwandy wrote: » 4. Arrange marriage is not Islam, it is a culture. Many Asian countries has this issue, look at India, Look at China etc.... It's all for profit and gains.
bubblypop wrote: » And what about the bible? The bible says pretty much the same things. As a poster who says they know and are friends with many muslims, I find it unbelievable that you claim they all abide by the Qur'an, or believe such things. You must know they don't. Same as Catholics believing the bible
Alwandy wrote: » That's not stoning, that's whipping (does not make it better though). And adultery back in those days religion or not was harshly punished. Always keep in mind as these were written this is how the world looked around it. BTW, Don't get me wrong, I understand where you guys are coming from with these comments as some muslim countries haven't really... represented us well.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » No actually you also named the Quran during the discussion. Any luck finding quotes to support your belief I have an agenda?
WrenBoy wrote: » thanks for messaging its good to have a different perspective, just want to be on the record I don't have an issue with muslims themselves (extremists aside) its more some of the teachings in the ideology Im discussing, much like there are aspects in christianity I don't like either.
jmayo wrote: » Ah yes the most common defense strategy when someone asks the serious questions about certain religions, certain cultures, certain ethnic groups and there are no excuses left. What about .... usually followed by one of the following -- catholics priests christians the bible the Irish the IRA BTW how many christian dominated states carry out any of these teachings from the Old Testament of the bible literally? Then compare that number to the number of muslim dominated states that do carry out some of these teachings from the quran. Interesting to see the numbers.
Alwandy wrote: » Sigh, Bible verses about stoning:https://biblia.com/bible/esv/leviticus/20/27https://biblia.com/bible/esv/exodus/21/28https://biblia.com/bible/esv/deuteronomy/22/24 I can keep going if wanted? Now to answer your questions about muslims: 1. Treatment of Women, by Prophet Muhammed statements we are supposedly to respect our wifes, treat them with kindness and offer them everything. If you actually read the Qu'ran you would read some statements such as: The man shall bring the money for the family while the woman who makes money shall keep it for herself. It is a man duty to feed the family and take care of his wife .. More in depth if you read it properly which you haven't. 2. Stoning on gays, sadly this includes all three Abrahamic religions. I do not agree with it as I do not like life being taken away (1 Tour Afghanistan, trust me I know how it is) but yes it is said so in Qu'ran, though most muslims agrees it is not theirs to judge rather than Allah himself. In other words, it is not my business and I'm flattered if a gay person flirts with me. 3. Marrying 12 year olds, I'm sure you referencing to our prophet Mohammed, this was quite a norm back in the days even in Europe, the royal families tried to keep the bloodline clean etc by doing inbred work 4. Arrange marriage is not Islam, it is a culture. Many Asian countries has this issue, look at India, Look at China etc.... It's all for profit and gains.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Do you believe that most Muslims hold sway in many of these ideological issues you have with Islam? Do you think most Muslims support child marriage? Do you think most Muslims support stoning for adultery?
Alwandy wrote: » Sigh, 4. Arrange marriage is not Islam, it is a culture. Many Asian countries has this issue, look at India, Look at China etc.... It's all for profit and gains.
gw80 wrote: » Just on the treatment of women part, Does this respect transfer equality to non Muslim women?
The people of Europe back in the day are not God's representative on earth. Muhammad is meant to be the most perfect man who Islam says we should seek to emulate in how we live today. He is meant to be better than the knowledge of the day and an example for all time. Unless muslims today condemn Muhammad's marriage to Aisha?
bubblypop wrote: » Indeed, was the culture here in Ireland until quite recently, I was in school with people whose parents were matched.
WrenBoy wrote: » Robbie, how is it possible for me to see into the hearts of most muslim people ? Be serious.
Patrick2010 wrote: » Arranged marriage in Ireland the culture here??...ah here! I've never seen that here thats anything like that happens in those other countries where couples have never met before.
Deleted User wrote: » I love how the debate about Islam and Christianity comes up again and again, even though, we've all covered this before. Christianity is in decline in both society, and governance. It's rules, laws, taboos, etc are all being pushed into the background, and Rome is bending over backwards to try stay relevant.. and pretty much failing. The numbers of people in the West who are devout enough to follow the Bible (any translation) is minor in comparison to the whole. It has been a long time since any interpretation of the Bible was used to strictly guide the behavior of any society, except for some minor groups. Whereas with Islam, it is firmly established in Islamic societies and governance. It's rules, laws, and taboos are very much relevant when it comes to the management of it's followers (depending on the interpretation), and the percentage who seek to follow the Quran is likely quite high. Why? Because in each instance of an Islamic nation which embraced western values and freedoms, in recent decades, they've all returned to stricter societal controls. Malaysia, Indonesia, even M.Eastern nations which were already quite devout, have re-instigated more traditional behaviors that society has been forced to conform to. Often with violence, torture, and conditioning schools being implemented. There is no real comparison to be made between Christianity, and Islam, except when you go back in time. However, when looking at the world, in a modern sense, they're light years apart. But you all know this because you all argued this before.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Checked my post. Never asked you to look into their heart. I asked for your opinion. If you don't want to provide your opinion that's ok. But I am not asking you an impossible question like do they really believe these things. I am asking if in your opinion you think these beliefs hold much sway with the majority of Muslims. Now I know these aren't actually in the Quran but maybe you can humour me anyway. Do you think most Muslims support child marriage? Do you think most Muslims support stoning for adultery It is an opinion and you cant be right or wrong for having one. As an example of what I am looking for see my attempt in regard Christians and things in the bible I already provided sections from the Christian bible on stoning and homosexuality and I will provide my opinion that outside a few crazed fundamentalist extremist Christians I don't think believe most Christians think gays are an abomination or adulterers should be stoned.
WrenBoy wrote: » On Child marriage I would be of the opinion that most muslims in the West (I have no experience of life outside of Western Europe and Asia) would not agree with child marriage. There is however precedent set by muhammad in this area so it lends credence to an argument against the age of consent being 18. I have seen some street debates on the topic if you are interested Link to a sample discussion on the topic Another but it is quite long.Another similar debate but this is from a christian channel On stoning adulterers According to Pew Research at least 3/4 muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (where Islam has quite a large influence in political life according to pew) as well as majorities in Jordan and Nigeria say they would favour of making stoning people who commit adultery into law. In the West I don't believe muslims would be in favour of stoning adulterers as I believe like many people they are more cultural muslims than anything else. My critique are of the religious teachings themselves and not necessarily of people who identify as muslim, maybe thats what your missing. Do you think the Hadiths are important in islam or do you think christianity and islam are delivered and to be interpreted in the same ways ?
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Thanks buddy. I wasn't missing anything I have been quite explicit that I was asking about the people and not the religion. So was that a no you don't believe most Muslim People believe either of those two things?
WrenBoy wrote: » Oh let me be clear, Im speaking of muslims who have been lucky enough to live in the west. Those are more cultural muslims at this stage. Others who live more closely to islams teaching very likely do agree with sharia and all the lovely things that bring. So in the West no I dont think they believe those things but outside the west where Islam has more sway yes they do I point you towards the Pew research in my post. 3/4's those muslims in Pakistan and Egypt want stoning adulterers in the law and I believe more muslims are based outside of Western Europe.
WrenBoy wrote: » btw any links on that crusader knight baptism thing you were talking about ?
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Sorry I'm really confused by your answer. So you have done your research. That's great. And after you have done that research you are saying you do or do not believe; Do you think most Muslims support child marriage? Do you think most Muslims support stoning for adultery I think I already admitted I was wrong on that pal. Was my admittance not enough. Do I need to be punished by stoning?
WrenBoy wrote: » Its hard to make it clearer. Child Marriage. Cultural muslims in the West I don't believe would be in favour of child marriage. Muslims who would be more devout in their religion as those outside of the West tend to be would be more in favour of interpreting age of consent and marriage along the lines of the quran and hadiths when the girl is in the opinion of someone(not sure who, its unclear) is deemed to be "mentally physically and mentally ready" covered in the videos I provided, you didn't watch. Aisha was married to Muhammad at 6 and was deemed to have met these criteria so why should that be any different for adherents today if they wish to live their lives like Muhammad did. Stoning In the West no, outside the West, where Islam is more a factor in people lives, yes according to the Pew research. Missed your admission you made that up sorry. No I wouldn't be for all that capital punishment myself, I think its vile and have no problem saying it straight out.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » So west Muslims good non west Muslims bad I think is what you are saying. Thanks for the lecture on Aisha. I'm sure you will understand if I believe none of your interpretation of her and Islamic scripture. It's not personal it's just I have had a whole day already of people telling me things were in the Quran when they weren't, on this thread. Edit Just to clarify your last little misinterpretation of me Wrenboy I have said multiple times on this thread I am opposed to capital punishment. And just to be very very very very clear so you don't get upset about this again.I RobbieTheRobber oppose capital punishment in all its forms in all places on earth (and also in made up heavens) and by all parties.
WrenBoy wrote: » Im not sure why I expected any better of you Robbie, than to simplistically render down complex issues to good/bad. I didn't say they were good or bad I gave you what I believe (and pew data states) their stance on stoning adulterers is. Do you think wanting adulterers to be stoned to death to be enshrined in law is good ? If not then by your own logic you have joined me in this pigeon hole position you came up with of "non west Muslims bad" as you put it. Your free to reject anything you want Robbie, doesn't bother me, the literature is readily available for you to read whenever you want.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » You know what I didn't even click your links until now didn't even look at the source. I have now and I'm shocked by first what your watching (Why) and second that you think it is proof of anything. Also you provided no link to your supposed pew research. Nothing not even a name of the research paper, nada, zilch, zip. So let me be clear and ask you straight out are these video right here are your proof of what Muslims think?
WrenBoy wrote: » I provided them so they might flesh out some of the arguments, extra context if you will. Some of the people involved are just muslims on the street in the UK so may provide some insight into their opinions on topics. Pew research - https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ I see your avoiding questions again I'll ask again. Do you think wanting adulterers to be stoned to death to be enshrined in law is good ? If not then by your own logic you have joined me in this pigeon hole position you came up with of "non west Muslims bad" as you put it.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Just Muslims and Christians on the street. hahaha all carrying bibles and Qurans. And ready for a theological debate on the street. Just your average Christians and Muslims Those links are part of religious indoctrination nothing more nothing less. There are no average street Muslims there. Because you know what most average people of all religions say when someone stops them in the street and tries to have theological debate on video camera? They most likely say some variation of sorry no I don't want to talk and go home. For F sake I wouldn't even stop and answer a normal question for a journalist like "are you happy with the current government?" with only a microphone. Normal people indeed
WrenBoy wrote: » On stoning adulterers According to Pew Research at least 3/4 muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (where Islam has quite a large influence in political life according to pew) as well as majorities in Jordan and Nigeria say they would favour of making stoning people who commit adultery into law. In the West I don't believe muslims would be in favour of stoning adulterers as I believe like many people they are more cultural muslims than anything else. My critique are of the religious teachings themselves and not necessarily of people who identify as muslim, maybe thats what your missing.
WrenBoy wrote: » Pew research - https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w2.vanillicon.com/v2/20f4606d019ca0b240328ff30d91e82b.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w6.vanillicon.com/v2/6b0748b4741870baaad828fe92174b3c.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w9.vanillicon.com/v2/9c6ef39403f5dc93bd4b9e77a11c1821.svg)
